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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as
 non-halting V2
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 08:46:21 -0500
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On 7/22/2024 2:57 AM, Mikko wrote:
> On 2024-07-21 13:34:40 +0000, olcott said:
> 
>> On 7/21/2024 4:34 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>> On 2024-07-20 13:11:03 +0000, olcott said:
>>>
>>>> On 7/20/2024 3:21 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-07-19 14:08:24 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> When we use your incorrect reasoning we would conclude
>>>>>> that Infinite_Loop() is not an infinite loop because it
>>>>>> only repeats until aborted and is aborted.
>>>>>
>>>>> You and your HHH can reason or at least conclude correctly about
>>>>> Infinite_Loop but not about DDD. Possibly because it prefers to
>>>>> say "no", which is correct about Infinte_loop but not about DDD.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Because this is true I don't understand how you are not simply lying*
>>>> int main
>>>> {
>>>>    DDD();
>>>> }
>>>>
>>>> Calls HHH(DDD) that must abort the emulation of its input
>>>> or {HHH, emulated DDD and executed DDD} never stop running.
>>>
>>> You are the lying one.
>>>
>>> If HHH(DDD) abrots its simulation and returns true it is correct as a
>>> halt decider for DDD really halts.
>>>
>>
>> (b) We know that a decider is not allowed to report on the behavior
>> computation that itself is contained within.
> 
> No, we don't. There is no such prohibition.
> 

Turing machines never take actual Turing machines as inputs.
They only take finite strings as inputs and an actual executing
Turing machine is not itself a finite string. Therefore It
is not allowed to report on its own behavior.

Another different TM can take the TM description of this
machine and thus accurately report on its actual behavior.

HHH1(DDD) is exactly the same as HHH(DDD) except that DDD
never calls HHH1 in recursive simulation. HHH1 *does not need*
to abort DDD because HHH *does need* to abort it simulation.

Everyone that I have spoken to about this in the last three
years believes that they can disagree with the semantics of
the x86 instructions of DDD (shown below) and can thus make
pretend that DDD does not call HHH(DDD) in recursive simulation.

_DDD()
[00002177] 55         push ebp
[00002178] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
[0000217a] 6877210000 push 00002177
[0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d7
[00002184] 83c404     add esp,+04
[00002187] 5d         pop ebp
[00002188] c3         ret
Size in bytes:(0018) [00002188]

_main()
[00002197] 55         push ebp
[00002198] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
[0000219a] 6877210000 push 00002177
[0000219f] e863f3ffff call 00001507
[000021a4] 83c404     add esp,+04
[000021a7] 33c0       xor eax,eax
[000021a9] 5d         pop ebp
[000021aa] c3         ret
Size in bytes:(0020) [000021aa]

  machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
  address   address   data      code       language
  ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
[00002197][001037fb][00000000] 55         push ebp
[00002198][001037fb][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
[0000219a][001037f7][00002177] 6877210000 push 00002177 ; push DDD
[0000219f][001037f3][000021a4] e863f3ffff call 00001507 ; call HHH1
New slave_stack at:10389f

Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:1138a7
[00002177][00113897][0011389b] 55         push ebp
[00002178][00113897][0011389b] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
[0000217a][00113893][00002177] 6877210000 push 00002177 ; push DDD
[0000217f][0011388f][00002184] e853f4ffff call 000015d7 ; call HHH
New slave_stack at:14e2c7

Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:15e2cf
[00002177][0015e2bf][0015e2c3] 55         push ebp
[00002178][0015e2bf][0015e2c3] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
[0000217a][0015e2bb][00002177] 6877210000 push 00002177 ; push DDD
[0000217f][0015e2b7][00002184] e853f4ffff call 000015d7 ; call HHH
New slave_stack at:198cef
[00002177][001a8ce7][001a8ceb] 55         push ebp
[00002178][001a8ce7][001a8ceb] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
[0000217a][001a8ce3][00002177] 6877210000 push 00002177 ; push DDD
[0000217f][001a8cdf][00002184] e853f4ffff call 000015d7 ; call HHH
Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped

[00002184][00113897][0011389b] 83c404     add esp,+04
[00002187][0011389b][000015bc] 5d         pop ebp
[00002188][0011389f][0003a980] c3         ret
[000021a4][001037fb][00000000] 83c404     add esp,+04
[000021a7][001037fb][00000000] 33c0       xor eax,eax
[000021a9][001037ff][00000018] 5d         pop ebp
[000021aa][00103803][00000000] c3         ret
Number of Instructions Executed(352831) == 5266 Pages


-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer