Path: ...!2.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Who here understands that the last paragraph is Necessarily true?
 --- Self-Modifying Turing Machine
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 09:19:10 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 120
Message-ID: <v7oe4u$17h8r$2@dont-email.me>
References: <v6un9t$3nufp$1@dont-email.me> <v7013v$2ccv$1@dont-email.me>
 <v70nt7$61d8$6@dont-email.me>
 <58fc6559638120b31e128fe97b5e955248afe218@i2pn2.org>
 <v71mjh$bp3i$1@dont-email.me>
 <1173a460ee95e0ca82c08abecdefc80ba86646ac@i2pn2.org>
 <v71okl$bvm2$1@dont-email.me>
 <5f6daf68f1b4ffac854d239282bc811b5b806659@i2pn2.org>
 <v71ttb$crk4$1@dont-email.me>
 <60e7a93cb8cec0afb68b3e40a0e82e9d63fa8e2a@i2pn2.org>
 <v721po$h4kr$1@dont-email.me> <v73td3$qkp2$6@dont-email.me>
 <v73tvs$qpi9$1@dont-email.me> <v74n81$13bn1$1@dont-email.me>
 <fafa57d75cf800c930c76530acd72148c77fff87@i2pn2.org>
 <v75ul2$19j7l$5@dont-email.me> <v77s2f$1o4oh$1@dont-email.me>
 <v78gi1$1rc43$6@dont-email.me> <v7d5r0$2t5hr$1@dont-email.me>
 <v7dsit$30pvh$4@dont-email.me> <v7fucc$3fh57$1@dont-email.me>
 <v7gcjm$3hlc2$1@dont-email.me> <v7ilo8$1pf7$1@dont-email.me>
 <v7j470$3o7r$5@dont-email.me> <v7l54c$indv$1@dont-email.me>
 <v7lrmd$luh0$4@dont-email.me> <v7nj86$13itb$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 16:19:10 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="c53d2de4672c698529f342dcfedcfa3a";
	logging-data="1295643"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX186/4G242qh+3/O0DhaC9s1"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:IR5mGnk4uP9tD5TLa7MX8Q2Wkws=
In-Reply-To: <v7nj86$13itb$1@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-US
Bytes: 6435

On 7/23/2024 1:40 AM, Mikko wrote:
> On 2024-07-22 14:51:57 +0000, olcott said:
> 
>> On 7/22/2024 3:26 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>> On 2024-07-21 13:58:56 +0000, olcott said:
>>>
>>>> On 7/21/2024 4:52 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-07-20 13:03:50 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7/20/2024 4:01 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2024-07-19 14:18:05 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When a Self-Modifying Turing Machine can change itself to become
>>>>>>>> any other Turing Machine then it can eliminate the pathological
>>>>>>>> relationship to its input.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It never was a Turing machine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A self modifying TM is merely a TM description that is
>>>>>> simulated by a UTM and has access to itself on the UTM
>>>>>> tape.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, it is not.
>>>>
>>>> I invented it thus that is the specification of my invention.
>>>
>>> The term "Turing machine" is already reserved and your "invention"
>>> is not one of the machines that are called "Turing macnines".
>>>
>>> Besides, you have not shown the "invention" so there is no
>>> basis to claim that you have invented anything.
>>>
>>
>> A  Self-Modifying Turing Machine is merely a conventional Turing Machine
>> Description x that is being simulated by a conventional Universal Turing
>> Machine y such that x is provided access to itself on y's tape.
>>
>>>>> A TM description describes a TM that does not change itself.
>>>>
>>>> X is not typically understood to do Y therefore it is
>>>> impossible for X to do Y is incorrect reasoning.
>>>
>>> That is a different situation. If someting is not understood one can be
>>> wrong about it. But even a very superficial understanding of Turing
>>> machines suffices for determination that a machine that modifis itself
>>> is not a Turing machine.
>>>
>>>> That you fail to understand that an emulated x86 program can
>>>> modify itself to change its own behavior as long as it knows
>>>> its own machine address is merely ignorance on your part.
>>>
>>> Your false claim about my understanding reveals that you are a liar.
>>> Thank you, but we already knew.
>>>
>>
>> *Ad Hominem attacks are the first resort of clueless wonders*
>>
>> Anyone with sufficient software engineering skill can write a
>> C function that changes its own machine code while it is running.
>> That you say that I am lying about this is ridiculously stupid
>> on your part.
>>
>>>> When a simulated Turing Machine Description is provided
>>>> access to itself on the UTM tape it can do the same thing.
>>>> Rigid minded people incorrectly conflate unconventional
>>>> for impossible.
>>>
>>> It is not a Turing machine desription if it describes a 
>>> self-modification.
>>>
>>
>> WRONG!
>>
>> It is not [the conventional notion of] a Turing machine description if 
>> it describes a self-modification, [yet self-modification is by no means
>> impossible].
> 
> The input language of an UTM does not contain any expression that could
> denote self-modification.

Tape head move, write value. The new idea is that the TM
description has access to its own location on the UTM tape,
unconventional not impossible.

>  In that sense self-modification is inpossible.

Not all all in my paper the SMTM merely gets rid of the infinite
loop as the accept state.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/307509556_Self_Modifying_Turing_Machine_SMTM_Solution_to_the_Halting_Problem_concrete_example

Google has lots of hits for [self modifying Turing machine]

> It you want to describe a self-modifying machine you need a different
> description language. If you want to simulate a self-modifying machine
> you need a simulator that can understand a description language for
> descriptions of self-modifying machines.
> 

In my example in my paper the tape head simply moves to
the state transition to an infinite loop and writes
final accept state.

Changing this
[002]["e"]----->(001, 003) // Transitions to (qa)

Into this:
[002]["e"]----->(001, 1234) // Recognizes "the"

> If the self-modifying machine can be simulated by a Turing machine it
> cannot compute anything a Turing machine cannot compute.
> 

It gets rid of the infinite loop at its accept state.

-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer