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From: Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com>
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: There's a little bit of blame to spread around...
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 07:56:02 -0700
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On 2024-07-23 02:55, Sir Tim wrote:
> KMark <mpconmy@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Geoff <geoff@geoffwood.org> wrote:
>>> On 22/07/2024 9:49 pm, Yazoo wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 21 Jul 2024 16:09:11 -0700, Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ...but this one is mostly on Verstappen.
>>>>>
>>>>> Braking as late as that, he was never going to make it stick.
>>>>>
>>>>> This overhead does show Hamilton made a very early turn-in:
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://x.com/hammertimev/status/1815070122312147356>
>>>>>
>>>>> But the Verstappen was divebombing. Plain and simple.
>>>>>
>>>>> What's ironic is that if Hamilton had really understood how late
>>>>> Verstappen started his braking, he could have just stayed out of the way
>>>>> and he'd have stayed ahead of Verstappen anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I agree. It's easy for us later lamenting about such situations.
>>>> Drivers are focused on winning, so they tend not to let others
>>>> overtake them.
>>>> Thus, Hamilton closed the inner part of turn a bit, and Verstappen
>>>> tried to overtake with aggresive late break. So, they touched. How to
>>>> measure the blame? I don't know.
>>>> As Hamiltons supporter I would obviously be on the Verstappen's side
>>>> of blame, but honestly, it was a racing incident (Hamilton said that
>>>> after the race).
>>>
>>> I though it was more of a cynical lunge, which would have ended with VER
>>> wide/off whatever HAM had done. Not quite as bad as the previous
>>> dodgems against NOR.
>>
>> I read it as Verstappen driving "angry". He misjudged the braking (even
>> though he'd been on the radio just before complaining about rear brakes)
>> and lost control. Hamilton took his normal racing line and was taken by
>> surprise. I don't think either deliberately wanted contact (god knows,
>> Hamilton was lucky not to have damage to the front-end as a result). For
>> me, it's a racing incident where Verstappen was way too aggressive and
>> optimistic and Hamilton didn't spot him coming in time.
>>
>> That said, I think the way the two responded directly afterwards is
>> telling. Verstappen immediately wants to mouth off and blame everyone
>> (but himself) while Hamilton shakes it off as "just a racing incident".
>>
>> Compare and contrast to a race a few years ago when Hamilton was
>> overoptimistic at Silverstone and lost control. Verstappen insists he
>> was in the right in taking his normal racing line even though he knows
>> Hamilton is there. (Compare that to the weekend when he insists that
>> Hamilton is *wrong* to take a racing line). When the collision occurs,
>> not only does he not accept it as a racing incident, he (and the team)
>> accuse Hamilton of trying to kill him.
>>
>> Hmmm...PKB
>>
> 
> I agree with everything you say.
> 
> It is clear that, brilliant as he is, there are still areas where Max needs
> to mature.
> 
> At Silverstone, all he needed to do was back off and wait for an
> opportunity to retake the place (with the knowledge that Lewis might get a
> penalty anyway).

Sorry, but of you're referring to the Copse crash, you're wrong.

Verstappen was already committed to a line around a very fast corner and 
he left more than a car's width on the inside for Hamilton. Back off in 
the middle of a fast corner at the limit and you risk spinning.

Just like Hungary but in reverse, Hamilton tried a move that wasn't 
going to work. The only way he could get into that position was to drive 
so fast that he couldn't make the apex and he drifted out into Verstappen.

One of the things I see people consistently failing to understand in 
this group is about how drivers are committed at certain points in a 
turn; what you can and cannot do at moments like that.

> 
> In Hungary he allowed his anger at the radio conversation with his engineer
> to get the better of him and tried a rash move that was never going to
> succeed.

I don't know that it was anger, but he certainly tried a move he had 
more than enough experience to know couldn't work.