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From: Mark <mpconmy@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: There's a little bit of blame to spread around...
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 15:48:29 -0000 (UTC)
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Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
> On 2024-07-23 02:55, Sir Tim wrote:
>> Mark <mpconmy@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I read it as Verstappen driving "angry". He misjudged the braking (even
>>> though he'd been on the radio just before complaining about rear brakes)
>>> and lost control. Hamilton took his normal racing line and was taken by
>>> surprise. I don't think either deliberately wanted contact (god knows,
>>> Hamilton was lucky not to have damage to the front-end as a result). For
>>> me, it's a racing incident where Verstappen was way too aggressive and
>>> optimistic and Hamilton didn't spot him coming in time.
>>>
>>> That said, I think the way the two responded directly afterwards is
>>> telling. Verstappen immediately wants to mouth off and blame everyone
>>> (but himself) while Hamilton shakes it off as "just a racing incident".
>>>
>>> Compare and contrast to a race a few years ago when Hamilton was
>>> overoptimistic at Silverstone and lost control. Verstappen insists he
>>> was in the right in taking his normal racing line even though he knows
>>> Hamilton is there. (Compare that to the weekend when he insists that
>>> Hamilton is *wrong* to take a racing line). When the collision occurs,
>>> not only does he not accept it as a racing incident, he (and the team)
>>> accuse Hamilton of trying to kill him.
>>>
>>> Hmmm...PKB
>>>
>> 
>> I agree with everything you say.
>> 
>> It is clear that, brilliant as he is, there are still areas where Max needs
>> to mature.
>> 
>> At Silverstone, all he needed to do was back off and wait for an
>> opportunity to retake the place (with the knowledge that Lewis might get a
>> penalty anyway).
> 
> Sorry, but of you're referring to the Copse crash, you're wrong.
> 
> Verstappen was already committed to a line around a very fast corner and 
> he left more than a car's width on the inside for Hamilton. Back off in 
> the middle of a fast corner at the limit and you risk spinning.

It was clear that in *both* cases, the overtaking driver was committed
to a pass that simply wasn't going to work - and that's what I wrote
above when I said "overoptimistic". In the case of Silverstone,
Verstappen didn't have great options, but he didn't need to contact
Hamilton the way he did. He *knew* the Mercedes was there, and (as the
analysis showed) there was no way for Hamilton to slow or maneuvre away.
Yes, there was a risk of spinning...but a risk of spinning is better
than a certainty of collision that comes with turning into a space
already occupied by a car.

He was unlucky in that he ended up with all the pain and Hamilton
very little, but there you go.

> Just like Hungary but in reverse, Hamilton tried a move that wasn't 
> going to work. The only way he could get into that position was to drive 
> so fast that he couldn't make the apex and he drifted out into Verstappen.

We could replay a lot of these situations. Both of them got the point
where they were taking risks that simply couldn't play out well. That
wasn't helped by the histrionics that surrounded Silverstone.

> One of the things I see people consistently failing to understand in 
> this group is about how drivers are committed at certain points in a 
> turn; what you can and cannot do at moments like that.

Patronising, much? It's not a failure to understand anything. It's that
not everyone agrees with your assessment. I don't expect you to always
agree with mine.

>> In Hungary he allowed his anger at the radio conversation with his engineer
>> to get the better of him and tried a rash move that was never going to
>> succeed.
> 
> I don't know that it was anger, but he certainly tried a move he had 
> more than enough experience to know couldn't work.

If you don't think it was anger, you weren't listening to his radio in
the minutes before he took that reckless move.