Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Jonesy Harry <jonesyharry@gis.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.dnd,rec.games.frp.advocacy
Subject: Re: [enworld] D&D Historian Benn Riggs On Gary Gygax & Sexism
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 20:45:33 -0300
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 76
Message-ID: <v7pfau$1dgph$1@dont-email.me>
References: <v6itor$28ptt$1@sibirocobombus.campaignwiki>
 <s39r8jhfgnhtfsmdt2cagnj3ge3jpg7fdr@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 01:45:34 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="5a18de3fc06dbfc18cae5d5528b6c6a3";
	logging-data="1491761"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19Hua9LauAq5wXTs6KjUnEUns7AKd1epuc="
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:c79X6UELKpSe37ynGXyHOJrppRA=
In-Reply-To: <s39r8jhfgnhtfsmdt2cagnj3ge3jpg7fdr@4ax.com>
Content-Language: en-US
Bytes: 5024

On 09/07/2024 18:40, Zaghadka wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 10:52:48 +0200, kyonshi <gmkeros@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Why then has the response been outrage from various corners of the
>> internet?
> 
> Because those are the only people who posted: the perpetually outraged.
> 
> It is a huge sample bias. Most people are fine with it. Those who are
> mildly bothered aren't posting.
> 
> But even a thousand people can make credible noise on the Internet. If
> you get to 50,000 or a million, then it feels incontrovertible. A quick
> Google says 50 million people play D&D. Even a million people is a 2%
> sliver of the community, and it's usually down to much, much fewer. You
> have to use scientific notation to record the 1,000 people. 50,000
> people, which is more than enough volume to seem credible, is easy math:
> 0.1% of the community. Wow. BFD.
> 
> In short, there is a cadre of people who live on the Internet and will
> run there and complain about literally anything, because they have little
> power in their lives to effect any change that matters around them. So
> they cast their line deep and far and go pissing in every fishing pond
> they can find. I know. I used to be one of them. It helps you cope when
> times are rough.
> 
> Facts: Gygax was a dude in the 70s. It's been 54 years. Any "dude from
> the 70s" is going to look racist and sexist by today's standards. Of
> course he was sexist. So was Malcolm X.
> 
> Result: Now we don't have "Ki" points anymore, we have "Martial
> Discipline" points, which is flavorless and dull and a mouthful. But God
> forbid Hasbro get dinged for cultural appropriation by the self-appointed
> thought police.
> 
> It's high time we stopped taking any of them seriously.
> 
> ---
> 
> My 2 cents about Gygax.
> 
> Gygax was a racist, a narcissist, and a sexist. He took all the credit
> for D&D when it was Arneson who wrote Chainmail, and the community that
> grew and wrote the game. He compiled a slew of community notes into a
> messy book and called it Advanced Dungeons and Dragons. Then he took
> credit for it. He was an *editor*, but the book says "by Gary Gygax" on
> the cover. I posit that he was a *bad* editor. Have you seen the
> pummeling and grappling tables in the 1e DMs guide?
> 
> Play-wise, he had a reputation for being mercilessly unfair to his
> players and his style of DMing, adopted by many, was the impetus for a
> legion of rules lawyers. That eventually got us to 3rd edition where
> there is a rule for almost everything. D&D became a game for rules
> lawyers. Skip 4th. 5th ed finally got it back to a sane game where the
> rules facilitate play, not dictate play.
> 
> But who cares? It's a great hobby and Gygax was instrumental in its
> creation and promotion. He almost sunk TSR by 1990, but his earnest (see
> what I did there?) contributions should be enough for anyone. There's no
> earthly reason to judge him or the work by such standards.
> 

Arneson didn't write Chainmail, his name isn't in the cover. It was 
written by Gary Gygax and Jeff Perren. Arneson did use Chainmail for his 
own Blackmoor games. Arneson did write with Gygax the original D&D, not 
Chainmail. About Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, Arneson in the same time 
period did wrote the "First Fantasy Campaign" for Judges Guild, his 
version of the game, and it was a lot worst than the AD&D books. A lot 
more of obtuse rules, procedures and very bad writing.

And about the reputation of Gygax's games you are wrong. Most people 
which did play with him says his games were very fair. Only in jokes 
games like the original Tomb Of Horror he was unfair. Everyone who thing 
the 5ed is the ruleset which bring sane game back is a moron. 5ed is 
from marvel type superhero fantasy games with videogame logic. Happily 
we have the OSR to counter act all of this