Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory,sci.logic
Subject: Re: Analytic Truth-makers
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 22:17:06 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 88
Message-ID: <v7prni$1j3e7$1@dont-email.me>
References: <v7m26d$nrr4$1@dont-email.me>
 <e41a2d324173031e1fe47acc0fd69b94b7aba55e@i2pn2.org>
 <v7msg0$sepk$1@dont-email.me>
 <3fb77583036a3c8b0db4b77610fb4bf4214c9c23@i2pn2.org>
 <MPG.4109e1eeb98e7f829896fe@reader.eternal-september.org>
 <v7olj0$19f9b$1@dont-email.me>
 <5406ed035cafb6c47d3b89e92dac58f0b9c67fe8@i2pn2.org>
 <v7pprm$1iqdm$1@dont-email.me>
 <c6614a4ab791677959ecc8cfc21bac9ae1811678@i2pn2.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 05:17:07 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="16ed067bd5cc70aacf71dd1f4de1f69e";
	logging-data="1674695"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19GDprpDWefevOCZalvxuVZ"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:drBTd3cT4gV+IWaRk7vjgFs/kn4=
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <c6614a4ab791677959ecc8cfc21bac9ae1811678@i2pn2.org>
Bytes: 4635

On 7/23/2024 10:03 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 7/23/24 10:45 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 7/23/2024 9:15 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 7/23/24 12:26 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 7/23/2024 9:51 AM, Wasell wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 22 Jul 2024 20:17:15 -0400, in article
>>>>> <3fb77583036a3c8b0db4b77610fb4bf4214c9c23@i2pn2.org>, Richard Damon 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7/22/24 8:11 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>>>> *No stupid I have never been saying anything like that* If g and
>>>>>>> ~g is not provable in PA then g is not a truth-bearer in PA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What makes it different fron Goldbach's conjecture?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think a better example might be Goodstein's theorem [1].
>>>>>
>>>>> * It is expressible in the same language as PA.
>>>>>
>>>>> * It is neither provable, nor disprovable, in PA.
>>>>>
>>>>> * We know that it is true in the standard model of arithmetic.
>>>>>
>>>>> * We know that it is false in some (necessarily non-standard) models
>>>>>    of arithmetic.
>>>>>
>>>>> * It was discovered and proved long before it was shown to be
>>>>>    undecidable in PA.
>>>>>
>>>>> The only drawback is that the theorem is somewhat more complicated
>>>>> than Goldbach's conjecture -- not a lot, but a bit.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodstein%27s_theorem>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am establishing a new meaning for
>>>> {true on the basis of meaning expressed in language}
>>>> Formerly known as {analytic truth}.
>>>> This makes True(L,x) computable and definable.
>>>
>>> You may say that, but you then refuse to do the work to actually do 
>>> that.
>>>
>>> The problem is that if you try to redefine the foundation, you need 
>>> to build the whole building all over again, but you just don't 
>>> understand what you need to do that.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> L is the language of a formal mathematical system.
>>>> x is an expression of that language.
>>>>
>>>> When we understand that True(L,x) means that there is a finite
>>>> sequence of truth preserving operations in L from the semantic
>>>> meaning of x to x in L, then mathematical incompleteness is abolished.
>>>
>>> Except you just defined that this isn't true, as you admit that the 
>>> Goldbach conjecgture COULD be an analytic truth even if it doesn't 
>>> have a finte sequence of truth perserving operations, 
>>
>> I redefined analytic truth to account for that. Things
>> like the Goldbach conjecture are in the different class
>> of currently unknowable.
> 
> In other words, NOTHING you are talking about apply to the logic that 
> anyone else is using.
> 
> Note, Godel's G can't be put into that category, as it is KNOWN to be 
> true in PA, because of a proof in MM 

You ONLY construe it to be true in PA because that is
the answer that you memorized.

When you understand that true requires a sequence of
truth preserving operations and they do not exist in
PA then it is not true in PA.

Memorizing a view and insisting that this view must
be correct because that is what you memorized is what
mindless robots would do.

-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer