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Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: DDD correctly emulated by HHH is Correctly rejected as non-halting V2 Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 11:57:42 +0300 Organization: - Lines: 76 Message-ID: <v7qfm6$1m5ce$1@dont-email.me> References: <v6rg65$32o1o$3@dont-email.me> <3fc6548531f91ed14a27420caf9679a634573ed0@i2pn2.org> <v70lmo$61d8$1@dont-email.me> <8a6e6d9ff49aabe2525ce5729a439c807de4768a@i2pn2.org> <34Ocnd4voeWlDAn7nZ2dnZfqnPudnZ2d@brightview.co.uk> <v725d7$hlvg$1@dont-email.me> <aa7643b6d8c46d2c4dd5ef92ae3650afe114adbb@i2pn2.org> <v734ct$mjis$2@dont-email.me> <056325e336f81a50f4fb9e60f90934eaac823d22@i2pn2.org> <v73gk2$obtd$1@dont-email.me> <e2958e7ea04d53590c79b53bfb4bc9dff468772b@i2pn2.org> <v742r2$s48s$2@dont-email.me> <210383b2ee318f68a96d94aec314ee8b93f79b7f@i2pn2.org> <v75u22$19j7l$4@dont-email.me> <fde630817c49562bc765bdbc98e16a1582bcad53@i2pn2.org> <v78mda$1smtm$2@dont-email.me> <v7d5cl$2t3ja$1@dont-email.me> <v7ds0o$30pvh$3@dont-email.me> <v7fs29$3f4g7$1@dont-email.me> <v7gd17$3hlc2$2@dont-email.me> <v7ikn4$1jv5$1@dont-email.me> <v7j2pg$3o7r$3@dont-email.me> <v7l3di$idv1$1@dont-email.me> <v7lnrf$luh0$1@dont-email.me> <v7niqp$13ghd$1@dont-email.me> <v7obbn$17h8r$1@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 10:57:43 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="db331d2b9b31805b751de8d112274783"; logging-data="1774990"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX184RSDSiglw70u7tY1q/e9T" User-Agent: Unison/2.2 Cancel-Lock: sha1:L66ws7tBl5irfLG+HxcE4arMUc4= Bytes: 4763 On 2024-07-23 13:31:35 +0000, olcott said: > On 7/23/2024 1:32 AM, 0 wrote: >> On 2024-07-22 13:46:21 +0000, olcott said: >> >>> On 7/22/2024 2:57 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>> On 2024-07-21 13:34:40 +0000, olcott said: >>>> >>>>> On 7/21/2024 4:34 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>> On 2024-07-20 13:11:03 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 7/20/2024 3:21 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>> On 2024-07-19 14:08:24 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> When we use your incorrect reasoning we would conclude >>>>>>>>> that Infinite_Loop() is not an infinite loop because it >>>>>>>>> only repeats until aborted and is aborted. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You and your HHH can reason or at least conclude correctly about >>>>>>>> Infinite_Loop but not about DDD. Possibly because it prefers to >>>>>>>> say "no", which is correct about Infinte_loop but not about DDD. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Because this is true I don't understand how you are not simply lying* >>>>>>> int main >>>>>>> { >>>>>>> DDD(); >>>>>>> } >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Calls HHH(DDD) that must abort the emulation of its input >>>>>>> or {HHH, emulated DDD and executed DDD} never stop running. >>>>>> >>>>>> You are the lying one. >>>>>> >>>>>> If HHH(DDD) abrots its simulation and returns true it is correct as a >>>>>> halt decider for DDD really halts. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> (b) We know that a decider is not allowed to report on the behavior >>>>> computation that itself is contained within. >>>> >>>> No, we don't. There is no such prohibition. >>>> >>> >>> Turing machines never take actual Turing machines as inputs. >>> They only take finite strings as inputs and an actual executing >>> Turing machine is not itself a finite string. >> >> The definition of a Turing machine does not say that a Turing machine >> is not a finite string. It is an abstract mathematical object without >> a specification of its exact nature. It could be a set or a finite >> string. Its exact nature is not relevant to the theory of computation, >> which only cares about certain properties of Turing machines. >> >>> Therefore It is not allowed to report on its own behavior. >> >> Anyway, that does not follow. The theory of Turing machines does not >> prohibit anything. >> >>> Another different TM can take the TM description of this >>> machine and thus accurately report on its actual behavior. >> >> If a Turing machine can take a description of a TM as its input >> or as a part of its input it can also take its own description. >> Every Turing machine can be given its own description as input >> but a Turing machine may interprete it as something else. >> > In this case we have two x86utm machines that are identical > except that DDD calls HHH and DDD does not call HHH1. That DDD calls HHH and DDD does not call HHH1 is not a difference between two unnamed turing machines. -- Mikko