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From: "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Because I have repeated this same point 500 times in the last
 three years...
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2024 08:53:07 +0200
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Op 26.jul.2024 om 03:49 schreef olcott:
> If you understand the x86 language and can't tell how DDD
> emulated by HHH differs from DDD emulated by HHH1 by the
> following then you are probably lying about understanding
> the x86 language.

We understand it perfectly. HHH cannot possibly simulate itself correctly.
HH1 does a correct simulation, but HHH does an incomplete and therefore 
incorrect simulation. The incomplete simulation does not show the full 
behaviour of DDD.
Since skipping x86 code is against the semantics of the x86 language, it 
is clear where the error is.

> 
> *I did annotate it a little better this time*
> 
> typedef void (*ptr)();
> int HHH(ptr P);
> int HHH1(ptr P);
> 
> void DDD()
> {
>    HHH(DDD);
> }
> 
> int main()
> {
>    HHH1(DDD);
> }
> 
> *You really don't need to know one damn thing else besides this*
> *You really don't need to know one damn thing else besides this*
> *You really don't need to know one damn thing else besides this*
> 
> All that you have to know is that HHH and HHH1 are x86 emulators
> and that HHH sees that same repeated state (first four lines of DDD)
> that anyone knowing the x86 language can see.
> 
> _DDD()
> [00002177] 55         push ebp
> [00002178] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> [0000217a] 6877210000 push 00002177 ; push DDD
> [0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d7 ; call HHH
> [00002184] 83c404     add esp,+04
> [00002187] 5d         pop ebp
> [00002188] c3         ret
> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002188]
> 
> _main()
> [00002197] 55         push ebp
> [00002198] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> [0000219a] 6877210000 push 00002177 ' push DDD
> [0000219f] e863f3ffff call 00001507 ; call HH1
> [000021a4] 83c404     add esp,+04
> [000021a7] 33c0       xor eax,eax
> [000021a9] 5d         pop ebp
> [000021aa] c3         ret
> Size in bytes:(0020) [000021aa]
> 
>   machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
>   address   address   data      code       language
>   ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
> [00002197][001037fb][00000000] 55         push ebp
> [00002198][001037fb][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> [0000219a][001037f7][00002177] 6877210000 push 00002177 ; push DDD
> [0000219f][001037f3][000021a4] e863f3ffff call 00001507 ; call HHH1
> New slave_stack at:10389f
> 
> // emulates 1st instance of DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:1138a7
> [00002177][00113897][0011389b] 55         push ebp
> [00002178][00113897][0011389b] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> [0000217a][00113893][00002177] 6877210000 push 00002177 ; push DDD
> [0000217f][0011388f][00002184] e853f4ffff call 000015d7 ; call HHH
> New slave_stack at:14e2c7
> 
> // emulates 2nd instance of DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:15e2cf
> [00002177][0015e2bf][0015e2c3] 55         push ebp
> [00002178][0015e2bf][0015e2c3] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> [0000217a][0015e2bb][00002177] 6877210000 push 00002177 ; push DDD
> [0000217f][0015e2b7][00002184] e853f4ffff call 000015d7 ; call HHH
> New slave_stack at:198cef
> 
> // emulates 3rd instance of DDD that calls HHH(DDD)
> [00002177][001a8ce7][001a8ceb] 55         push ebp
> [00002178][001a8ce7][001a8ceb] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
> [0000217a][001a8ce3][00002177] 6877210000 push 00002177 ; push DDD
> [0000217f][001a8cdf][00002184] e853f4ffff call 000015d7 ; call HHH
> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped

This is the error in HHH. HHH is programmed to print after two cycles 
that there is an infinite recursion, which is not true, after which it 
aborts and halts, making the simulation incorrect.

HHH is simply unable to decide about finite recursions.

void Finite_Recursion (int N) {
   if (N > 0) Finite_Recursion (N - 1);
}

It decides after N recursions that there is an infinite recursion, which 
is incorrect. It does not see the difference between an finite and an 
infinite recursion.

> 
> // returns to 1st instance of DDD emulated by HHH1
> [00002184][00113897][0011389b] 83c404     add esp,+04
> [00002187][0011389b][000015bc] 5d         pop ebp
> [00002188][0011389f][0003a980] c3         ret
> 
> // return to main
> [000021a4][001037fb][00000000] 83c404     add esp,+04
> [000021a7][001037fb][00000000] 33c0       xor eax,eax
> [000021a9][001037ff][00000018] 5d         pop ebp
> [000021aa][00103803][00000000] c3         ret
> Number of Instructions Executed(352831) == 5266 Pages
> 
Olcott's psychology is intriguing. At the one hand he is crying for 
help. He has some ideas which he cannot prove. Therefore he is begging 
the exports to help him with a proof.
When the experts prove that there are errors in his idea and show him a 
way to improve his idea, he does not have the mental intelligence to 
even consider the possibility that there is something incorrect in his 
ideas. He cannot show any error in their proofs, but he does not want to 
accept it.
Therefore he uses the excuse that the experts must be lying in order to 
be able to ignore the proofs that his ideas are wrong.
Then he keeps repeating his proven incorrect ideas, without any 
evidence, probably hoping that if it is repeated often enough, it will 
become true.
That is not how logic works.
No matter how much olcott wants it to be correct, or how many times 
olcott repeats that it is correct, it does not change the fact that 
these ideas are incorrect.