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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: This function proves that only the outermost HHH examines the
 execution trace
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2024 09:11:25 -0500
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On 7/28/2024 2:50 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
> Op 27.jul.2024 om 22:05 schreef olcott:
>> On 7/27/2024 2:55 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>> Op 27.jul.2024 om 21:27 schreef olcott:
>>>> On 7/27/2024 1:50 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>> Op 26.jul.2024 om 22:14 schreef olcott:
>>>>>> On 7/26/2024 2:46 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>>>> On 26/07/2024 16:56, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> This is meant for Mike, Joes and Fred don't have the technical 
>>>>>>>> competence to understand it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Richard might be able to understand it yet the fact that he is
>>>>>>>> stuck in rebuttal mode makes any understanding that he may have
>>>>>>>> utterly useless.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mike: It seems that HHH has been a pure function of its inputs
>>>>>>>> and never has provided data downward to its slaves that corrupts
>>>>>>>> their halt status decision. They don't even make a halt status
>>>>>>>> decision thus cannot make a corrupted one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, the first two claims are literally untrue - outer HHH 
>>>>>>> effectively uses the static mutable data to pass flags to the 
>>>>>>> inner HHH that modify its behaviour.  The Root flag below is 
>>>>>>> derived from the actual static data and causes inner HHH to 
>>>>>>> totally skip its own abort logic!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You seem to acknowledge this, but claim it does not matter for 
>>>>>>> various reasons, because whatever mistakes you are making, what 
>>>>>>> finally gets printed out is saying the right thing!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If HHH gets the correct answer in an impure way then it only
>>>>>> counts that it gets it in an impure way if it is impossible
>>>>>> to get in a pure way. This makes it possible for HHH to get
>>>>>> this answer in a pure way:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Message-ID: <rLmcnQQ3-N_tvH_4nZ2dnZfqnPGdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>
>>>>>> On 3/1/2024 12:41 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>  > Obviously a simulator has access to the internal state
>>>>>>  > (tape contents etc.) of the simulated machine. No problem there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike Terry is right that a simulator has access to the internal 
>>>>> state of the simulated machine, but he did not say that it is 
>>>>> correct to *change in this way* the state of the simulated machine.
>>>>> Changing the state of the simulated machine is cheating. 
>>>>
>>>> I know this and agree with him on this.
>>>>
>>>>> Of course a simulator can modify the input before of during the 
>>>>> simulation. 
>>>>
>>>> No that is cheating too.
>>>
>>> That is exactly what you do when you change the value of the variable 
>>> 'Root'. 'Root' is a hidden input for HHH.
>>
>> If you had sufficient understanding of the x86 language
>> you would know that DDD is correctly emulated by HHH.
> 
> If you understood only a little bit of x86, you would know that changing 
> the value of a variable (like Root), will modify the behaviour of a 
> program, making a cheating simulator.
> 

I have been programming in the x86 language since it was new.

I commented the whole block of code out that does the abort
so that HHH is just a simulator and not a termination analyzer
and it just keeps on running until the instruction limited of
50,000,000 instructions have been emulated. Every recursive
emulation take about 100-fold more steps than the prior one.

_DDD()
[00002137] 55               push ebp
[00002138] 8bec             mov ebp,esp
[0000213a] 6837210000       push 00002137
[0000213f] e853f4ffff       call 00001597
[00002144] 83c404           add esp,+04
[00002147] 5d               pop ebp
[00002148] c3               ret
Size in bytes:(0018) [00002148]

_main()
[00002157] 55               push ebp
[00002158] 8bec             mov ebp,esp
[0000215a] e8d8ffffff       call 00002137
[0000215f] 33c0             xor eax,eax
[00002161] 5d               pop ebp
[00002162] c3               ret
Size in bytes:(0012) [00002162]

  machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
  address   address   data      code       language
  ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
[00002157][0010379f][00000000] 55               push ebp
[00002158][0010379f][00000000] 8bec             mov ebp,esp
[0000215a][0010379b][0000215f] e8d8ffffff       call 00002137
[00002137][00103797][0010379f] 55               push ebp
[00002138][00103797][0010379f] 8bec             mov ebp,esp
[0000213a][00103793][00002137] 6837210000       push 00002137
[0000213f][0010378f][00002144] e853f4ffff       call 00001597
New slave_stack at:103843

Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:11384b
[00002137][0011383b][0011383f] 55               push ebp
[00002138][0011383b][0011383f] 8bec             mov ebp,esp
[0000213a][00113837][00002137] 6837210000       push 00002137
[0000213f][00113833][00002144] e853f4ffff       call 00001597
New slave_stack at:14e26b
[00002137][0015e263][0015e267] 55               push ebp
[00002138][0015e263][0015e267] 8bec             mov ebp,esp
[0000213a][0015e25f][00002137] 6837210000       push 00002137
[0000213f][0015e25b][00002144] e853f4ffff       call 00001597
New slave_stack at:15e30b
[00002137][0016e303][0016e307] 55               push ebp
[00002138][0016e303][0016e307] 8bec             mov ebp,esp
[0000213a][0016e2ff][00002137] 6837210000       push 00002137
[0000213f][0016e2fb][00002144] e853f4ffff       call 00001597
New slave_stack at:16e3ab
[00002137][0017e3a3][0017e3a7] 55               push ebp
[00002138][0017e3a3][0017e3a7] 8bec             mov ebp,esp
[0000213a][0017e39f][00002137] 6837210000       push 00002137
[0000213f][0017e39b][00002144] e853f4ffff       call 00001597
New slave_stack at:17e44b
[00002137][0018e443][0018e447] 55               push ebp
Number of Instructions Executed(50000000) == 746269 Pages



>>
>> That you don't know this conclusively proves that you
>> don't have sufficient understanding of the x86 language.
> 
> Irrelevant nonsense ignored.
> 
>>
>> All of the issues that Mike bought up have nothing to
>> do with correct emulation. They only pertain to how
>> the halt status decision is derived.
> 
> So, why do you bring up x86?
> 
> But you keep talking about a halt status. E.g. that the simulator must 
> abort to halt a non-halting program.
> You are twisting the meaning of simulator often, as you think that 
> aborting is part of a simulation.
> You seem to think that aborting is part of the semantics of the x86 
> language.
> 
>>
>> That the halt status decision is proven to be correct
>> on the basis that its behavior pattern exactly matches
>> this infinite recursion behavior pattern is proven.
>>
>> void Infinite_Recursion()
>> {
>>    Infinite_Recursion();
>> }
>>
>> _Infinite_Recursion()
>> [0000215a] 55         push ebp
>> [0000215b] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>> [0000215d] e8f8ffffff call 0000215a ; recursive call
>> [00002162] 5d         pop ebp
>> [00002163] c3         ret
>> Size in bytes:(0010) [00002163]
>>
>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:113934
>> [0000215a][00113924][00113928] 55         push ebp
>> [0000215b][00113924][00113928] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>> [0000215d][00113920][00002162] e8f8ffffff call 0000215a
>> [0000215a][0011391c][00113924] 55         push ebp
========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========