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Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: This function proves that only the outermost HHH examines the execution trace Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 07:59:59 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 128 Message-ID: <v883of$g39i$1@dont-email.me> References: <v80h07$2su8m$3@dont-email.me> <v82bi4$39v6n$4@dont-email.me> <v82tr5$3dftr$2@dont-email.me> <v82vtl$3dq41$2@dont-email.me> <v830hg$3dftr$9@dont-email.me> <v83des$2nhr$1@news.muc.de> <v83dp3$3g9s7$1@dont-email.me> <v852m1$3sfas$1@dont-email.me> <v86loe$54o5$1@dont-email.me> <v87g9h$d073$1@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:00:00 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="9d358cc663705f17d44fb4afa23cd753"; logging-data="527666"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19GqVJAVRDYtqm54BWdRsiX" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:Tc8E7O3/I5nNfvtrOsL37C61Zkw= In-Reply-To: <v87g9h$d073$1@dont-email.me> Content-Language: en-US Bytes: 6286 On 7/29/2024 2:27 AM, Mikko wrote: > On 2024-07-28 23:54:54 +0000, olcott said: > >> On 7/28/2024 4:23 AM, Mikko wrote: >>> On 2024-07-27 18:20:19 +0000, olcott said: >>> >>>> On 7/27/2024 1:14 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: >>>>> olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Stopping running is not the same as halting. >>>>>> DDD emulated by HHH stops running when its emulation has been >>>>>> aborted. >>>>>> This is not the same as reaching its ret instruction and terminating >>>>>> normally (AKA halting). >>>>> >>>>> I think you're wrong, here. All your C programs are a stand in for >>>>> turing machines. A turing machine is either running or halted. >>>>> There is >>>>> no third state "aborted". >>>> >>>> Until you take the conventional ideas of >>>> (a) UTM >>>> (b) TM Description >>>> (c) Decider >>>> and combine them together to become a simulating partial halt decider. >>> >>> You also need the conventional ideas of halting and halt decider. >>> The latter is largely a combination of the conventional ideas of >>> decider and halting but also involves the conventional of >>> prediction, so you need that, too. >>> >>> Although the conventional idea of testing is not relevant to the >>> construction of a simulating partial halt decider it is helpful to >>> presentation of the >>> result, especially if your target audience contains software >>> engineers. If your target audience is mainly mathematicians the >>> convnetional idea of proofs is more useful because in that case most >>> of your presentation must be proofs. >> >> My ideas must be anchored in fully specified running software >> otherwise the false assumptions made by computer science people >> remain hidden. > > There is no "must" there. You may present your ideas whichever way you > think is the best for your purposes. > Even when I make my ideas 100% concrete people still deny the verified facts.When I make them less than 100% concrete it is not as specific as verified facts. > One good way to avoid false assumptions is to clearly state what is > assumed instead. Sometimes it may be necessary to clearly state what > is not assumed. > >> Even when I slap them in the face with proven facts they deny >> these proven facts on the basis of their indoctrination. > > Facts are never proven. They are observed. > You didn't even bother to look at how HHH examines the execution trace of Infinite_Recursion() to determine that Infinite_Recursion() specifies non-halting behavior. Because of this you cannot see that the execution trace of DDD correctly emulated by DDD is essentially this same trace and thus also specifies non-halting behavior. void Infinite_Recursion() { Infinite_Recursion(); } _Infinite_Recursion() [0000215a] 55 push ebp ; 1st line [0000215b] 8bec mov ebp,esp ; 2nd line [0000215d] e8f8ffffff call 0000215a ; 3rd line [00002162] 5d pop ebp [00002163] c3 ret Size in bytes:(0010) [00002163] Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:113934 [0000215a][00113924][00113928] 55 push ebp ; 1st line [0000215b][00113924][00113928] 8bec mov ebp,esp ; 2nd line [0000215d][00113920][00002162] e8f8ffffff call 0000215a ; 3rd line [0000215a][0011391c][00113924] 55 push ebp ; 1st line [0000215b][0011391c][00113924] 8bec mov ebp,esp ; 2nd line [0000215d][00113918][00002162] e8f8ffffff call 0000215a ; 3rd line Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped ===== void DDD() { HHH(DDD); } _DDD() [00002177] 55 push ebp ; 1st line [00002178] 8bec mov ebp,esp ; 2nd line [0000217a] 6877210000 push 00002177 ; push DDD [0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d7 ; call HHH [00002184] 83c404 add esp,+04 [00002187] 5d pop ebp [00002188] c3 ret Size in bytes:(0018) [00002188] // executed HHH emulates 1st instance of DDD New slave_stack at:10388d Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:113895 [00002177][00113885][00113889] 55 push ebp ; 1st line [00002178][00113885][00113889] 8bec mov ebp,esp ; 2nd line [0000217a][00113881][00002177] 6877210000 push 00002177 ; push DDD [0000217f][0011387d][00002184] e853f4ffff call 000015d7 ; call HHH // emulated HHH emulates 2nd instance of DDD New slave_stack at:14e2b5 [00002177][0015e2ad][0015e2b1] 55 push ebp ; 1st line [00002178][0015e2ad][0015e2b1] 8bec mov ebp,esp ; 2nd line [0000217a][0015e2a9][00002177] 6877210000 push 00002177 ; push DDD [0000217f][0015e2a5][00002184] e853f4ffff call 000015d7 ; call HHH Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped -- Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer