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Path: ...!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: Hypothetical possibilities --- stupid rebuttal --- Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2024 23:09:34 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 143 Message-ID: <v8cde0$1ecgo$1@dont-email.me> References: <v7gl30$3j9fi$1@dont-email.me> <v7led6$kacj$1@dont-email.me> <v7lsg5$luh0$5@dont-email.me> <v7nm9m$1433k$1@dont-email.me> <v7ofe7$17h8r$6@dont-email.me> <v7qfu0$1m6vf$1@dont-email.me> <v7r040$1onhe$3@dont-email.me> <v7vlbj$2ofet$1@dont-email.me> <v80a2u$2rabc$4@dont-email.me> <v825jo$39i9l$1@dont-email.me> <v82u9d$3dftr$3@dont-email.me> <v8306v$3c7$1@news.muc.de> <v83161$3dftr$11@dont-email.me> <v84udt$3rp4t$1@dont-email.me> <v8bc6j$159av$1@dont-email.me> <ea673a5b4ed43fbddf938c69bd013b0cf2ca325d@i2pn2.org> <v8c6kb$1de3l$1@dont-email.me> <9f3112e056ad6eebf35f940c34b802b46addcad4@i2pn2.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 06:09:36 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="d6c56e3cc0e766a5f243fbbf3db0d44a"; logging-data="1520152"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18VqvVzgX146RdEAWhILK/Y" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:heUfk3kVHGEw8imkD/rvCFz4NWA= In-Reply-To: <9f3112e056ad6eebf35f940c34b802b46addcad4@i2pn2.org> Content-Language: en-US Bytes: 7380 On 7/30/2024 10:19 PM, Richard Damon wrote: > On 7/30/24 10:13 PM, olcott wrote: >> On 7/30/2024 8:21 PM, Richard Damon wrote: >>> On 7/30/24 2:42 PM, olcott wrote: >>>> On 7/28/2024 3:10 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>> On 2024-07-27 14:45:21 +0000, olcott said: >>>>> >>>>>> On 7/27/2024 9:28 AM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: >>>>>>> olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> On 7/27/2024 1:54 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>> If a simulator correctly simulates a finite number of instructions >>>>>>>>> where x86 program specifies an execution of an infinite number of >>>>>>>>> instructions then the simulation deviates from x86 semantics at >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> point where the simulation stops but the x86 semantics specify >>>>>>>>> countinuation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In other words you believe that instead of recognizing a >>>>>>>> non-halting behavior pattern, then aborting the simulation >>>>>>>> and rejecting the input as non-halting the termination >>>>>>>> analyzer should just get stuck in recursive simulation? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You're doing it again. "In other words" is here a lie; you've just >>>>>>> replaced Mikko's words with something very different. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> He just said that the simulation of a non-terminating input >>>>>> is incorrect unless it is simulated forever. >>>>> >>>>> I said it deviates form the x86 semantics. I didn't say whether it is >>>>> incorrect to deviate from x86 semantics. >>>> >>>> The measure of DDD correctly emulated by HHH >>>> until HHH correctly determines that its emulated DDD would never >>>> stop running unless aborted... >>>> >>>> is that the emulation of DDD by HHH >>>> *DOES NOT DEVIATE FROM THE X86 SEMANTICS* >>> >>> Which frst means it must emulate per the x86 semantics, which means >> >> >>> the call to HHH must be followed by the emulation of the x86 >>> instructions of HHH, not something else. >>> >> >> *The call to HHH HAS ALWAYS BEEN FREAKING FOLLOWED* >> *by the emulation of the x86 instructions of HHH* > > Then why don't you show it then > >> >> It seems best proven by this source-code >> https://github.com/plolcott/x86utm/blob/master/Halt7.c >> >> This level of detail was never required because we >> could always see from the trace of DDD that it must >> have been a call to an x86 emulator or we would >> never have gotten to the first line of DDD again. >> >> https://liarparadox.org/HHH(DDD)_Full_Trace.pdf >> We can see from the first page of the trace on >> page 38 of the file that DDD calls HHH(DDD) and >> the next line is the address of HHH. > > But that call is from MAIN not DDD. > Ah you are right. So now you see what I mean. They are all mixed together just like I expected The first five lines of HHH are on pages 44-49 That is why I always presented it this way. _DDD() [00002172] 55 push ebp ; housekeeping [00002173] 8bec mov ebp,esp ; housekeeping [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD) [0000217f] 83c404 add esp,+04 [00002182] 5d pop ebp [00002183] c3 ret Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183] _main() [00002192] 55 push ebp [00002193] 8bec mov ebp,esp [00002195] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD [0000219a] e833f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD) [0000219f] 83c404 add esp,+04 [000021a2] 50 push eax [000021a3] 6843070000 push 00000743 [000021a8] e8b5e5ffff call 00000762 [000021ad] 83c408 add esp,+08 [000021b0] 33c0 xor eax,eax [000021b2] 5d pop ebp [000021b3] c3 ret Size in bytes:(0034) [000021b3] machine stack stack machine assembly address address data code language ======== ======== ======== ========= ============= [00002192][00103820][00000000] 55 push ebp [00002193][00103820][00000000] 8bec mov ebp,esp [00002195][0010381c][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD [0000219a][00103818][0000219f] e833f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD) New slave_stack at:1038c4 We don't show any of HHH and show the execution trace of of just DDD assuming that HHH is an x86 emulator. *Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:1138cc* [00002172][001138bc][001138c0] 55 push ebp ; housekeeping [00002173][001138bc][001138c0] 8bec mov ebp,esp ; housekeeping [00002175][001138b8][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD [0000217a][001138b4][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD) If the emulated call to HHH(DDD) from the emulated DDD wasn't correct then how the hell did it get to the first line of DDD shown below? [00002172][0015e2e4][0015e2e8] 55 push ebp ; housekeeping [00002173][0015e2e4][0015e2e8] 8bec mov ebp,esp ; housekeeping [00002175][0015e2e0][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD [0000217a][0015e2dc][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD) *Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped* [0000219f][00103820][00000000] 83c404 add esp,+04 [000021a2][0010381c][00000000] 50 push eax [000021a3][00103818][00000743] 6843070000 push 00000743 [000021a8][00103818][00000743] e8b5e5ffff call 00000762 Input_Halts = 0 [000021ad][00103820][00000000] 83c408 add esp,+08 [000021b0][00103820][00000000] 33c0 xor eax,eax [000021b2][00103824][00000018] 5d pop ebp [000021b3][00103828][00000000] c3 ret Number of Instructions Executed(10069) == 150 Pages -- Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer