Path: ...!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: No decider is accountable for the computation that itself is
 contained within
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 10:32:59 +0200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 110
Message-ID: <v8csrs$1gbu7$3@dont-email.me>
References: <v80irs$2tlb5$1@dont-email.me> <v828ju$3a1gf$1@dont-email.me>
 <v82vpu$3dftr$6@dont-email.me> <v8506m$3s27b$1@dont-email.me>
 <v88g60$i7kl$5@dont-email.me>
 <8ac9fd02d6247cec58098de53c964a5feed41946@i2pn2.org>
 <v88u9c$kpv7$1@dont-email.me>
 <3c24d92260cc29c0b39004bf3448d415c567549a@i2pn2.org>
 <v8b443$13n24$1@dont-email.me>
 <00e25e8f7bb0af364c2bad26b5a1ebeb76fee34d@i2pn2.org>
 <v8bhhe$15une$3@dont-email.me>
 <f8c0c2ac41bd97a5cdbf0d3a50274a08e6246c72@i2pn2.org>
 <v8blja$16ibk$3@dont-email.me>
 <CLGcnZQGLvckADT7nZ2dnZfqnPGdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>
 <v8c883$1djbp$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2024 10:33:00 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="ecb5db382df1907940b8ec29fc629507";
	logging-data="1585095"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18jYlPsm7FIJbpXmogM7ZqO"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:+Q3gvkd+jx7rTY/0q1iDC01nIMo=
Content-Language: en-GB
In-Reply-To: <v8c883$1djbp$1@dont-email.me>
Bytes: 6563

Op 31.jul.2024 om 04:41 schreef olcott:
> On 7/30/2024 9:13 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>> On 30/07/2024 22:22, olcott wrote:
>>> On 7/30/2024 4:09 PM, joes wrote:
>>>> Am Tue, 30 Jul 2024 15:13:34 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>> On 7/30/2024 2:52 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>> Am Tue, 30 Jul 2024 11:24:35 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>> On 7/30/2024 2:24 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>> Am Mon, 29 Jul 2024 15:32:44 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>> On 7/29/2024 3:17 PM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Am Mon, 29 Jul 2024 11:32:00 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/28/2024 3:40 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-07-27 14:21:50 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/27/2024 2:46 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-07-26 16:28:43 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Halt deciders are not allowed to report on the behavior of the
>>>>>>>>>>> actual computation that they themselves are contained within. 
>>>>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>>>>>> are only allowed to compute the mapping from input finite 
>>>>>>>>>>> strings.
>>>>>>>>>> What if the input is the same as the containing computation?
>>>>>>>>> It always is except in the case where the decider is reporting on
>>>>>>>>> the TM description that itself is contained within.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't understand. "The input is not the same as the containing
>>>>>>>> computation when deciding on the description of the containing
>>>>>>>> computation"?
>>>>>> I mean: is that an accurate paraphrase?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> An executing Turing machine is not allowed to report on its own
>>>>>>> behavior. Every decider is only allowed to report on the behavior 
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> its finite string input specifies.
>>>>>> And what happens when those are the same?
>>>
>>>>> That is always the case except in the rare exception that I discovered
>>>>> where a simulating halt decider is simulating the input that calls
>>>>> itself.
>>>
>>>> Always? Most TMs don't get themselves as input. OTOH that is one of
>>>> the most interesting cases.
>>>> The description of a TM specifies the behaviour of that machine
>>>> when it is running.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The x86 code of DDD when correctly emulated by HHH according
>>> to the semantics of the x86 code of DDD and HHH does have
>>> different behavior that the directly executed DDD as a matter
>>> of verified fact for three years.
>>>
>>> People deny this as if a smash a Boston Cream pie in the face
>>> and they deny that there ever was any pie even while their
>>> voice is incoherent because they are talking through the pie
>>> smashed on their face.
>>
>> Hehe, when you go on like this I can't help thinking of "head crusher":
>>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8t4pmlHRokg>
>>
>> Mike.
>>
> 
> It has always been ridiculously stupid to say that DDD
> is not correctly emulated by HHH because how the hell
> would would get to the first instruction of DDD if HHH
> did not correctly emulate DDD ???
> 
> The same thing applies when DDD calls HHH(DDD).
> 
> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:1138cc
> [00002172][001138bc][001138c0] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
> [00002173][001138bc][001138c0] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
> [00002175][001138b8][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
> [0000217a][001138b4][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
> New slave_stack at:14e2ec
> [00002172][0015e2e4][0015e2e8] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
> [00002173][0015e2e4][0015e2e8] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
> [00002175][0015e2e0][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
> [0000217a][0015e2dc][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
> 
> Is the real issue that no one here besides me has any clue
> about the x86 language and they are all just faking it?
> 
> I have no idea what you are saying and on this basis I am
> sure that you must be wrong?
> 

You have no idea, because it seems to be over your head.

When are you going to learn x86?
The above code does not show any x86 instruction that bring the flow of 
the simulation back to 00002172.
In addition, the call to 00000015d2 is not followed by the instruction 
at 00000015d2, as required by x86.
Probably, you are hiding these instructions on purpose, because it would 
reveal the conditional branch instruction in HHH.
Finally, HHH skips the last few instructions of a halting program, which 
is also against the semantics of the x86 language.
All your talk about x86 is just word salad.

HHH cannot possibly simulate itself correctly.
No matter how much olcott wants it to be correct, or how many times 
olcott repeats that it is correct, it does not change the fact that such 
a simulation is incorrect, because it is unable to reach the end of a 
halting program.