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From: BGB <cr88192@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: Misc: Applications of small floating point formats.
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2024 03:01:16 -0500
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On 8/3/2024 12:32 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Aug 2024 20:54:47 -0500, BGB wrote:
> 
>> On 8/2/2024 7:07 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 2 Aug 2024 03:56:35 -0500, BGB wrote:
>>>
>>>> For batch rendering, it doesn't really need to be efficient though.
>>>
>>> Of course it does. Ray-traced renderers can compute hundreds or
>>> thousands of rays per pixel, taking anywhere from minutes to hours per
>>> frame. This is how you produce those cinema-quality 4K (or even 8K)
>>> frames. Anything that can shave a little bit off the time for a single
>>> ray computation can very quickly add up.
>>>
>> You don't do raytracing in OpenGL...
>>
>> That is not the point of using it.
> 
> Precisely what I have been trying to say.
> 


But, what I am saying is, a lot of stuff doesn't need raytracing.

Movies and similar often use raytracing, but a lot of stuff doesn't need 
it. One can often tell visually what is or is not raytracing.



Also, sometimes raytracing doesn't work out ideal either:

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BNmZhZGU2Y2QtYjc2NC00MzE5LWE3OGItMTFmOGU4NzVjM2YyXkEyXkFqcGdeQXRyYW5zY29kZS13b3JrZmxvdw@@._V1_.jpg

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/S/pv-target-images/ccbc22354235eb619e2ad63c56a7c89bdee327fb1e7a2cf0b965c91b2e5336cc.jpg


Or, a different show:
https://images.mubicdn.net/images/film/261999/cache-530661-1585953887/image-w1280.jpg?size=800x

Or, same characters from an previous incarnation of the show:
https://static1.cbrimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Code-Lyoko-Header.jpg


Like, raytracing is accurate, but doesn't necessarily guarantee good 
results in an aesthetic sense.



As noted, Miraculous Ladybug was also raytraced.

Eg:
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BMzFlMGE1OWUtZDY3ZC00Y2Q0LWE2MmEtNjE1ZGI4NmNhYTRlXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyNzEzNjU1NDg@._V1_.jpg

Here, it was pulled off a little better in terms of aesthetics.




>> Similarly, not everything needs raytracing.
>> For many uses, rasterization is fine.
> 
> There are renderers that are based on video-game engines. And they can
> indeed use GPU-based compute APIs, as I mentioned previously. But they
> still don’t use OpenGL for rendering.
> 

Granted, cause most of them are now using Vulkan...

There is now RTX, which can do hardware raytracing.



>> For a lot of shows, you don't even really need 3D.
> 
> Funny, that. It is quite common to create 2D-style animations with 3D
> software nowadays.
> 

Granted, you can basically treat the 2D characters like billboard 
sprites. Doesn't really change much here though...



>> One might instead go the other direction, and use a 3D renderer with a
>> cel-shading filter to try to make it fit better with the anime
>> characters ...
> 
> It takes a bit more than cel-shading to get a good 2D look with 3D
> software.
> 
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKmSdY56VtY>


Possibly, but this is not typical from what I have seen.
Blender's use of raytracing need not imply that use of raytracing is 
universal.



When I was younger, we had a whole lot of this:
https://mechanicalanimereviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/stand-alone-complex-anime-review.jpg?w=840

But, then cel-shading steps in:
https://talesfromtheneonbeach.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/sac12x01.webp


Or, from an animated movie:
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BN2E2MmI2MjMtZDFkMi00ODE4LTkwNDYtY2FkMTZmMmIyZWNjXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyOTc5MDI5NjE@._V1_.jpg

To me, this one looks like multiple overhead light-sources and 
shadow-mapping. Two sky-lights on the camera's side of the helicopter, 
upper left direction, and third more powerful skylight above the 
opposite side of the helicopter, applying light from the upper right 
direction, causing a stronger leftward shadow (the shadows below the 
helicopter hinting at the multiple discrete light sources; the edges of 
the shadows give away the use of shadow-mapping).
There appears to be another smaller light-source near the front-left, a 
short distance below the body (with a lighting radius that does not 
reach the ground). There is another light source to the rear (outside 
the right edge of the frame); ... (I guess ~ 6 light sources here).

No obvious evidence of either raytracing or global illumination. There 
does appear to be a depth-of-field blur effect (several of the effects 
used would have required fragment shaders).




But, then, somewhere along, we got stuff like this (RWBY):
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/12/JLxRWBY-cast-announce-image-H-2022.jpg?w=1296&h=730&crop=1

Basically, shows with very obvious 3D models and animation, but then 
they cel-shade it.


I am willing to bet that none of this was raytraced...



Related (Amazing Digital Circus):

https://i0.wp.com/boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/Screenshot-2024-05-05-at-3.46.58%E2%80%AFPM.png?fit=2383%2C1264&ssl=1

https://assets.buzzmag.co.uk/uploads/2024/05/the-amazing-digital-circus-featured.jpeg

https://sportshub.cbsistatic.com/i/2023/11/16/c0385021-3b53-48c3-9998-266d865ccc32/the-amazing-digital-circus.jpg

Which looks (to me) like a more advanced use of rasterization (with HDR 
and a lot of shader effects and similar).


....