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From: olcott <abc@def.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Who knows that DDD correctly simulated by HHH cannot possibly
 reach its own return instruction final state?
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2024 11:44:57 -0500
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On 8/6/2024 11:35 AM, Mike Terry wrote:
> On 06/08/2024 17:18, olcott wrote:
>> On 8/6/2024 10:58 AM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>> On 06/08/2024 04:21, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 8/5/2024 10:12 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>> On 06/08/2024 03:25, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/5/2024 8:32 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/5/24 8:07 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/5/2024 5:59 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 8/5/24 9:49 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/5/2024 2:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-04 18:59:03 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/4/2024 1:51 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/4/24 9:53 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/4/2024 1:22 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 03.aug.2024 om 18:35 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>>> ∞ instructions of DDD correctly emulated by HHH[∞] 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reach their own "return" instruction final state.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So you are saying that the infinite one does?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dreaming again of HHH that does not abort? Dreams are no 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> substitute for facts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The HHH that aborts and halts, halts. A tautology.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> void DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    HHH(DDD);
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>    return;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is the right answer to the wrong question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am asking whether or not DDD emulated by HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reaches its "return" instruction.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But the "DDD emulated by HHH" is the program DDD above,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> When I say DDD emulated by HHH I mean at any level of
>>>>>>>>>>>> emulation and not and direct execution.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If you mean anything other than what the words mean you wihout
>>>>>>>>>>> a definition in the beginning of the same message then it is
>>>>>>>>>>> not reasonable to expect anyone to understand what you mean.
>>>>>>>>>>> Instead people may think that you mean what you say or that
>>>>>>>>>>> you don't know what you are saying.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you don't understand what the word "emulate" means look it up.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> DDD (above) cannot possibly reach its own "return" instruction 
>>>>>>>>>> halt
>>>>>>>>>> state when its machine code is correctly emulated by HHH.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Only because an HHH that does so never returns to anybody.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you really not understand that recursive emulation <is>
>>>>>>>> isomorphic to infinite recursion?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not when the emulation is conditional.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Infinite_Recursion() meets the exact same condition that DDD
>>>>>> emulated by HHH makes and you know this. Since you are so
>>>>>> persistently trying to get away contradicting the semantics
>>>>>> of the x86 language the time is coming where there is zero
>>>>>> doubt that this is an honest mistake.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ben does correctly understand that the first half of the Sipser
>>>>>> approved criteria is met. Even Mike finally admitted this.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't recall doing that.  Please provide a reference for this.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 8/2/2024 8:19 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>  > It's easy enough to say "PO has his own criterion for
>>>>  > halting, which is materially different from the HP condition,
>>>>  > and so we all agree PO is correct by his own criterion...
>>>>
>>>
>>> That is not agreeing that the first half of the Sipser approved 
>>> criteria is met. 
>>
>> That <is> my own criterion. Whatever else could you mean?
>> Do you still disagree with Ben on this point?
> 
> I do not agree that the first half of Sipser's quote has been satisfied 
> by your scenario.  You have misunderstood/misapplied what Sipser agreed to.
> 
> 
> Mike.
> 

So you think that Ben is wrong?

On 10/14/2022 7:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
 > I don't think that is the shell game.  PO really /has/ an H
 > (it's trivial to do for this one case) that correctly determines
 > that P(P) *would* never stop running *unless* aborted.
....
 > But H determines (correctly) that D would not halt if it
 > were not halted.  That much is a truism.

Since you fail to point out any supporting reasoning
this would indicate that you have no such reasoning.

You simply guess that I must be wrong and don't want
to bother with trying to show any actual mistake.

I was 100% specific going over each tiny nuance of detail
of exactly how anyone can know that I am correct meeting
the fist half of the professor Sipser approved criterion.

We can't get to the more difficult second half until
after their is agreement on the first half.

-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer