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From: Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Heating for fusion, Why toast plasma when you can microwave it?
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2024 00:20:11 +1000
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On 11/08/2024 3:33 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Sat, 10 Aug 2024 09:35:16 -0700) it happened John Larkin
> <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in
> <3q4fbjls1l443iuh35lgfv86ennta3vk0i@4ax.com>:
> 
>> On Sat, 10 Aug 2024 06:01:32 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On a sunny day (Fri, 09 Aug 2024 08:56:44 -0700) it happened John Larkin
>>> <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in
>>> <esecbj1vp6cf0v0778gt00kut08div9dsm@4ax.com>:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 09 Aug 2024 06:38:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On a sunny day (Fri, 9 Aug 2024 02:18:17 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
>>>>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <v92r4h$3fk7$1@dont-email.me>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8/08/2024 8:23 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 8 Aug 2024 17:13:36 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
>>>>>>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <v91r78$3pjer$3@dont-email.me>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 7/08/2024 3:27 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Heating for fusion: Why toast plasma when you can microwave it!
>>>>>>>>>     https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/08/240806131216.htm
>>>>>>>>>      Carving a new path forward for compact fusion vessels
>>>>>>>>> Date:
>>>>>>>>>     August 6, 2024
>>>>>>>>> Source:
>>>>>>>>>     DOE/Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory
>>>>>>>>> Summary:
>>>>>>>>>     Can plasma be sufficiently heated inside a tokamak using only microwaves?
>>>>>>>>>     New research suggests it can! Eliminating the central ohmic heating coil
>>>>>>>>>     normally used in tokamaks will free up much-needed space for a more compact,
>>>>>>>>>     efficient spherical tokamak.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not so much carving a new path as looking for one. Maybe be gyrotrons
>>>>>>>> can heat the plasma enough, but planing to do experiment which can test
>>>>>>>> whether they can isn't exactly carving a new path - more just looking at
>>>>>>>> a possible new path.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bye bye ITER and that otehr fusion attempt mayonaise thing
>>>>>>>>>     https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/08/240806131357.htm
>>>>>>>>>      Researchers dig deeper into stability challenges of nuclear fusion -- with mayonnaise
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Now all I am waiting for is a 10 year old kid doing a better than break even fusion experiment in its parents
>>>>>>>>> kitchen...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You may have to wait a long time. Mayonaise may exhibit Rayleigh-Taylor
>>>>>>>> instability, but the lessons it might be able to impart would be
>>>>>>>> difficult to translate into totomak design.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I like that Farnsworth fusor thing
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course you do. You are too dim to notice that it can't generate
>>>>>> enough energy to be a useful energy source - though it can be a handy
>>>>>> source of neutrons if you need them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This spelled out if the link you posted, but clearly didn't read.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They mention the grid gets too hot as a problem.
>>>>>>> Why not use a water filled pipe as grid,
>>>>>>> heat the water to steam, drive a small steam engine
>>>>>>> that drives a generator that drives a HV converter,
>>>>>>> simple electronics, there is a table top experiment.
>>>>>>>    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusor
>>>>>>>     so many simple ways to improve that setup!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But none are going to make it an energy source.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yea, and planes could never fly as those were heavier than air.
>>>>> There are solutions, some are simple.
>>>>> I have been posting about that Farnsworth fusor many times, but your amnesia must have gotten to you again.
>>>>>
>>>>> What will never produce energy is the large political job creation projects for albert onestone parrots like ITER is.
>>>>> Or that laser fusion crap in 'merrica.
>>>>
>>>> NIF is really about nuclear weapons, but the over-unity energy yield
>>>> is interesting.
>>>
>>> Yes, but theequipment ises a zillio times more energy that is produced...
>>>>>
>>>>> Same for anti-gravity.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is fun info too, previous thing you did not graps:
>>>>> Carvings at ancient monument may be world's oldest calendars
>>>>>   https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/08/240806131238.htm
>>>>>   comets causing glowball cooling?
>>>>>
>>>>> As to solder, when was the last time your front limbs held a sodering iron?
>>>>
>>>> Good question!
>>>
>>> Yea, had not touched it in several days myself .. was repairing a watch...
>>> need better tools, but it works again..
>>> We are in for some nice hot days here, 35 degrees C here predicted for Monday.
>>> 95 F?
>>
>>
>> We're up in the mountains, in Truckee, and I'm not soldering here
>> either. It's hit 92F during the day but it's cold at night. Well, 92
>> above an asphalt road; it's cooler in the woods. It's dry so doesn't
>> feel very hot. We get occasional wafts of smoke, from the usual
>> California forest fires. We had a bear stroll down the street
>> yesterday.
> 
> We now have more wolf problems, a place where close to where used to live and go a a kid
> has now had wolves attack little kids and kill many sheep.
> Still the idiot greenish politicians here want to keep protecting the wolves...
> No big fires here, air is clean..
> I am close to the beach actually, little islands close to here are a big holiday attaction.
> Ferries going there..
>   https://www.dutchwaddenislands.com/ameland/inspiration
> 
> 
>> I have a new intern starting soon, and there's so much to teach him,
>> including soldering.
> 
> Not much practical stuff teached in collage these days?
> What is his eduction background?
> 
>>>
>>> As to that fusor, some old electron guns from color CRTs.. good focal point, 35 kV should be no problem
>>> need a good lab and mechanical man.
>>> Maybe some electron guns from old film scanner CRTs, those used even higher voltages.
>>> electrons; more basic and simpler than light.
>>> Farnsworth was a genius.
>>>
>>
>> Yes. He was a mostly unlearned farm boy who invented electronic
>> television near here, on Green Street.
>>
>> https://noehill.com/sf/landmarks/cal0941.asp
> 
> That is very nice
> 
> 
>> It's not hard to build a particle accelerator to get some fusion, but
>> it's not efficient.
> 
> Yea, but something should be possible to increase on that 'fusor' setup.

But why do you think that?

> As it is all about tiny particles, we should have a small portable fusion power plant
> say one for every car and every household.

The tiny particles of oxygen that burn the almost as small hydrocarbon 
molecules in cars call for tolerably bulky power units. Your logic sucks.

> No more huge power lines, like we now have no more telegraph lines for data.

We now have fibre-optic cables rather than telegraph lines. We don't 
route much data up to synchronous satellites any more - it's too slow 
and you can't parallel up enough connections.
> 
> It must be possible, we are overlooking something.
> Atoms are very small...

And so is Jan Panteltje's brain, even it contains 86 billion very small 
neurones, some of which work.

-- 
Bill Sloman, Sydney


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