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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: HHH maps its input to the behavior specified by it --- key error
 in all the proofs
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2024 10:34:37 -0500
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On 8/12/2024 10:05 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 8/12/24 9:16 AM, olcott wrote:
>> On 8/12/2024 8:04 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 8/12/24 8:43 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 8/11/2024 12:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 8/11/24 8:40 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/11/2024 6:08 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 10:38 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 9:21 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 9:43 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 8:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 8:51 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 7:20 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 7:52 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 5:47 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 6:41 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 4:53 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 5:37 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 4:33 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 5:18 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 3:58 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 4:36 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I have countlessly proven it only requires 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough correctly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulated steps to correctly infer that the input 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would never
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reach is "return" instruction halt state.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Except that HHH does't do that, since if HHH 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decides to abort and return, then the DDD that it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is emulating WILL return, just after HHH has 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stopped its emulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You just confuse the behavior of DDD with the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PARTIAL emulation that HHH does, because you lie 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about your false "tautology".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Denying a tautology seems to make you a liar. I only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say "seems to" because I know that I am fallible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Claiming a false statement is a tautology only make 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you a liar.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this case, you lie is that the HHH that you are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> talking about do the "correct emulation" you base 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you claim on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is just a deception like the devil uses, has 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just a hint of truth, but the core is a lie.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What I say is provably correct on the basis of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> semantics of the x86 language.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The x86 language says DDD will Halt if HHH(DDD) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> returns a value.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH is called by main() there is no directly executed 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any where in the whole computation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Except in your requirements, and we can see what it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does by adding a call to DDD from main, since nothing 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in your system calls main.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All that you need to know is that there is not any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> directly executed DDD() anywhere in the computation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But there ccould be, and the behavior of it is what matters.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The key error of the halting problem proofs all of these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years has been the false assumption that a halt decider
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> must report on the behavior of the computation that itself
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is contained within.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But it isn't a false assemption, but an actual requirement.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> A Halt Decider must be able to correctly answer for ANY 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Turing Machine represented as its input.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ANY includes those that are built from a copy of itself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, a Halt Decider needs to be able to correctly answer 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> about programs that include copies of itself, even with 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> contrary behavior, which is what makes it impossible to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> compute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You seem to confuse non-computable with invalid, it seems 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in part because you don't understand the difference between 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge and truth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone has simply assumed that the behavior of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input to a decider must exactly match the direct execution
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of this input. They only did this because everyone rejected
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation out-of-hand without review.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because that is the DEFINITION of what it is to decide on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You just don't understand what a requirement is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since the DEFINITION of "Correct Simulation" that you are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> trying to use (from a UTM) means a machine the EXACTLY 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reproduces the behavior of the direct exectution of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine described by the input, the correct simulation must 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly match the behavior of the direct execution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can't get out of it by trying to lie about it being 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> different.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This caused them to never notice that the input simulated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> according to its correct semantics does call its own decider
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in recursive simulation thus cannot possibly return to its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> caller. The Linz proof is sufficiently isomorphic so this 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applies to the Linz TM proof.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope, just shows you don't know what "Correct" means.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your proof is NOT "sufficiently isomorphic" since by your 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> own claims it is clearly not even Turing Complete, so no 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> where near isomorphic.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If HHH were to report on the direct execution of DDD it would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be breaking the definition of a halt decider that only 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> computes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the mapping from its input...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope. Since the mapping that it is supposed to compute is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> DEFINED as based on the direct exectut
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No it never has been this. I has always been a mapping
>>>>>>>>>>>> from the behavior that the finite string specifies. It
>>>>>>>>>>>> has never been the behavior of the actual computation
>>>>>>>>>>>> that the decider is contained within.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And thatg behavior is specified to be the behavior of the 
>>>>>>>>>>> program the input represents. PERIOD.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That has never been true. It is always the case that every
>>>>>>>>>> decider of any kind only computes the mapping from its input
>>>>>>>>>> finite string and never gives a rat's ass about anything else
>>>>>>>>>> anywhere else.
>>>>>>>>>
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