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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: HHH maps its input to the behavior specified by it --- key error
 in all the proofs --- Mike
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2024 12:32:37 -0500
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On 8/12/2024 12:12 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 8/12/24 12:52 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 8/12/2024 11:42 AM, olcott wrote:
>>> On 8/12/2024 11:10 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>> On 8/12/24 11:34 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>> On 8/12/2024 10:05 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/12/24 9:16 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/12/2024 8:04 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/12/24 8:43 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 8/11/2024 12:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/11/24 8:40 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/11/2024 6:08 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 10:38 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 9:21 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 9:43 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 8:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 8:51 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 7:20 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 7:52 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 5:47 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 6:41 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 4:53 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 5:37 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 4:33 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 5:18 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/2024 3:58 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/10/24 4:36 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I have countlessly proven it only requires 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough correctly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulated steps to correctly infer that the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input would never
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reach is "return" instruction halt state.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Except that HHH does't do that, since if HHH 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decides to abort and return, then the DDD that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is emulating WILL return, just after HHH 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has stopped its emulation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You just confuse the behavior of DDD with the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PARTIAL emulation that HHH does, because you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lie about your false "tautology".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Denying a tautology seems to make you a liar. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say "seems to" because I know that I am 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fallible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Claiming a false statement is a tautology only 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make you a liar.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this case, you lie is that the HHH that you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are talking about do the "correct emulation" 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you base you claim on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is just a deception like the devil uses, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has just a hint of truth, but the core is a lie.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What I say is provably correct on the basis of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> semantics of the x86 language.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The x86 language says DDD will Halt if HHH(DDD) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> returns a value.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH is called by main() there is no directly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> executed DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any where in the whole computation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Except in your requirements, and we can see what 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it does by adding a call to DDD from main, since 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nothing in your system calls main.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All that you need to know is that there is not any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> directly executed DDD() anywhere in the computation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But there ccould be, and the behavior of it is what 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matters.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The key error of the halting problem proofs all of these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years has been the false assumption that a halt decider
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> must report on the behavior of the computation that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> itself
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is contained within.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But it isn't a false assemption, but an actual 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> requirement.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A Halt Decider must be able to correctly answer for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ANY Turing Machine represented as its input.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ANY includes those that are built from a copy of itself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, a Halt Decider needs to be able to correctly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer about programs that include copies of itself, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even with contrary behavior, which is what makes it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> impossible to compute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You seem to confuse non-computable with invalid, it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seems in part because you don't understand the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> difference between knowledge and truth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Everyone has simply assumed that the behavior of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> input to a decider must exactly match the direct 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> execution
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of this input. They only did this because everyone 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rejected
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation out-of-hand without review.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because that is the DEFINITION of what it is to decide 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You just don't understand what a requirement is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since the DEFINITION of "Correct Simulation" that you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are trying to use (from a UTM) means a machine the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EXACTLY reproduces the behavior of the direct 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exectution of the machine described by the input, the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct simulation must exactly match the behavior of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the direct execution.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can't get out of it by trying to lie about it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being different.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This caused them to never notice that the input 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> according to its correct semantics does call its own 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> decider
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in recursive simulation thus cannot possibly return 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> caller. The Linz proof is sufficiently isomorphic so 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this equally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> applies to the Linz TM proof.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope, just shows you don't know what "Correct" means.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your proof is NOT "sufficiently isomorphic" since by 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your own claims it is clearly not even Turing 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Complete, so no where near isomorphic.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If HHH were to report on the direct execution of DDD 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be breaking the definition of a halt decider that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only computes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the mapping from its input...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope. Since the mapping that it is supposed to compute 
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