Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Overview of proof that the input to HHH(DDD) specifies
 non-halting behavior --- Mike --- point by point
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2024 11:01:55 +0200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 98
Message-ID: <v9hrq3$ccps$1@dont-email.me>
References: <v9edol$3metk$1@dont-email.me> <v9fe61$3rqao$1@dont-email.me>
 <v9flkh$3se8c$3@dont-email.me> <v9fr90$3u3of$1@dont-email.me>
 <v9ftsp$3uffi$1@dont-email.me> <v9g0im$3u3of$5@dont-email.me>
 <v9g22t$3uffi$3@dont-email.me> <v9g6rb$cql$1@dont-email.me>
 <v9g7d3$gmc$1@dont-email.me> <v9gaup$17ve$1@dont-email.me>
 <v9gbl8$1i21$1@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2024 11:01:56 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="6da5e08f9c7ed4eb5f33d65ff78e7eee";
	logging-data="406332"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/752+i5sBJBGTsIaeRBDiY"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:nqiS36z5toN/lbCH9NykvOIaAWg=
In-Reply-To: <v9gbl8$1i21$1@dont-email.me>
Content-Language: en-GB
Bytes: 5498

Op 13.aug.2024 om 21:20 schreef olcott:
> On 8/13/2024 2:08 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>> Op 13.aug.2024 om 20:07 schreef olcott:
>>> On 8/13/2024 12:58 PM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>> Op 13.aug.2024 om 18:36 schreef olcott:
>>>>> On 8/13/2024 11:11 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>> Op 13.aug.2024 om 17:25 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>> On 8/13/2024 9:40 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>> Op 13.aug.2024 om 15:04 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>> On 8/13/2024 5:57 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-13 01:43:49 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> We prove that the simulation is correct.
>>>>>>>>>>> Then we prove that this simulation cannot possibly
>>>>>>>>>>> reach its final halt state / ever stop running without being 
>>>>>>>>>>> aborted.
>>>>>>>>>>> The semantics of the x86 language conclusive proves this is 
>>>>>>>>>>> true.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thus when we measure the behavior specified by this finite
>>>>>>>>>>> string by DDD correctly simulated/emulated by HHH it specifies
>>>>>>>>>>> non-halting behavior.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.researchgate.net/ 
>>>>>>>>>>> publication/369971402_Simulating_Termination_Analyzer_H_is_Not_Fooled_by_Pathological_Input_D
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Input to HHH(DDD) is DDD. If there is any other input then the 
>>>>>>>>>> proof is
>>>>>>>>>> not interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The behviour specified by DDD on the first page of the linked 
>>>>>>>>>> article
>>>>>>>>>> is halting if HHH(DDD) halts. Otherwise HHH is not interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Any proof of the false statement that "the input to HHH(DDD) 
>>>>>>>>>> specifies
>>>>>>>>>> non-halting behaviour" is either uninteresting or unsound.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> void DDD()
>>>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>>>    HHH(DDD);
>>>>>>>>>    return;
>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It is true that DDD correctly emulated by any HHH cannot
>>>>>>>>> possibly reach its own "return" instruction final halt state.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Contradiction in terminus.
>>>>>>>> A correct simulation is not possible. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *YOU JUST DON'T GET THIS*
>>>>>>> A simulation of N instructions of DDD by HHH according to
>>>>>>> the semantics of the x86 language is stipulated to be correct.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You don't get that you cannot stipulate that something is correct. 
>>>>>
>>>>> It is objectively incorrect to disagree with the semantics
>>>>> of the x86 language when one is assessing whether or not
>>>>> an emulation of N instructions of an input is correct or
>>>>> incorrect.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you can't agree to that anything else that you say is moot.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is objectively incorrect to say that a simulation is correct when 
>>>> it only simulated the first N instructions correctly.
>>>
>>> It is objectively correct to say that the first N instructions
>>> were emulated correctly when the first N instructions were
>>> emulated correctly.
>>>
>>> Changing my words then providing a rebuttal for these changed
>>> words is a form of intentional deceit known as strawman.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> *You* are changing words.
>> A few lines above *you* said:
>>  >>>>>>> It is true that DDD correctly emulated by any HHH cannot
>>  >>>>>>> possibly reach its own "return" instruction final halt state.
>>
> 
> It is cheating to provide a rebuttal to the words that I
> actually said right now based on any other words that I
> said anywhere else.
> 
> A simulation of N instructions of DDD by HHH according to
> the semantics of the x86 language is necessarily correct.
We can agree that HHH made a good start for the simulation with a 
correct simulation of the first N steps, but failed to complete the 
simulation by not reaching the end of the simulation.

Note that the semantics of the x86 language does not depend on who or 
what is using it. The direct execution uses the same semantics and it 
correctly shows that the end of the program can be reached according to 
this semantics. So, when the simulator does not reach the end, it 
deviates from the semantics of the input, when it processes the same input.