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From: "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: key error in all the proofs --- Mike's correction of Joes
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2024 10:20:57 +0200
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Op 14.aug.2024 om 23:08 schreef olcott:
> On 8/14/2024 3:56 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>> On 14/08/2024 18:45, olcott wrote:
>>> On 8/14/2024 11:31 AM, joes wrote:
>>>> Am Wed, 14 Aug 2024 08:42:33 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>> On 8/14/2024 2:30 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>> On 2024-08-13 13:30:08 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>> On 8/13/2024 6:23 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/12/24 11:45 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *DDD correctly emulated by HHH cannot possibly reach its* *own
>>>>>>>>> "return" instruction final halt state, thus never halts*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which is only correct if HHH actuallly does a complete and correct
>>>>>>>> emulation, or the behavior DDD (but not the emulation of DDD by 
>>>>>>>> HHH)
>>>>>>>> will reach that return.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A complete emulation of a non-terminating input has always been a
>>>>>>> contradiction in terms.
>>>>>>> HHH correctly predicts that a correct and unlimited emulation of DDD
>>>>>>> by HHH cannot possibly reach its own "return" instruction final halt
>>>>>>> state.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That is not a meaningful prediction because a complete and unlimited
>>>>>> emulation of DDD by HHH never happens.
>>>>>>
>>>>> A complete emulation is not required to correctly predict that a
>>>>> complete emulation would never halt.
>>>> What do we care about a complete simulation? HHH isn't doing one.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Please go read how Mike corrected you.
>>>
>>
>> Lol, dude...  I mentioned nothing about complete/incomplete simulations.
>>
> 
> *You corrected Joes most persistent error*
> She made sure to ignore this correction.
> 
>> But while we're here - a complete simulation of input D() would 
>> clearly halt. 
> 
> _DDD()
> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
> [00002173] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04
> [00002182] 5d         pop ebp
> [00002183] c3         ret
> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
> 
> A complete simulation *by HHH* remains stuck in
> infinite recursion until aborted.

It is aborted, so the infinite recursion is just a dream. Dreams are no 
substitute for facts.
The complete simulation of the HHH that *aborts* does not remain stuck, 
as proven when it is simulated by e.g. HHH1 or UTM. No abort is needed 
to simulate it up to the end. But when simulated by itself, it is 
aborted prematurely.
We are talking about the HHH that aborts. When we want a complete 
simulation of it, we don't want to change this input of a HHH that 
aborts to an HHH that does not abort.
We know that you are cheating, by using the Root variable, so that the 
aborting HHH simulates another input, namely the non-aborting HHH.

> 
> Termination analyzers / halt deciders are only required
> to correctly predict the behavior of their inputs.

Exactly. And the input is a program based on the HHH that aborts and halts.

> 
> Termination analyzers / halt deciders are only required
> to correctly predict the behavior of their inputs, thus
> the behavior of non-inputs is outside of their domain.

So, it make no sense to dream about a HHH that does not halt when 
simulating a HHH that does halt. The HHH that does not halt is a 
non-input and outside the domain.

It seems that you are unable to see the difference between the simulator 
and its input. The problem is that a simulator cannot possibly simulate 
correctly when its own algorithm is part of the input.