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From: Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: About WiFi7
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2024 18:46:47 -0700
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On 8/23/2024 5:14 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
>>> But I don't see how an air-gapped network is a network.
>>> I would not be able to get anything done.
>>
>> If everything you need is IN that network, then why open it up to potential
>> adversaries?
> 
> I don't have anything open to potential adversaries.

Of course you do.  You just don't THINK you do!

>> I have scanners, printers, in-circuit-emulators, CAD/CAE
>> systems, etc. all "a click away"
> 
> So do I.

So, then I guess MINE is a network, right?

>> -- without ever leaving the confines of
>> my home/office.
> 
> I can use mine from any country I'm likely to be in.

How do you place the documents in the scanner?  Pick the pages up
off the printer?  Turn the power on to the DUT you are debugging
with the ICE?

>> If I need to find a datasheet, I can move to THIS machine, locate the
>> datasheet, download it to a thumb drive and sneakernet it into the
>> office.  How often do you need to do *that*?
> 
> Every few minutes, and I can do it all from where I sit, even if I go to another country.

Really?  How HUGE must your designs be to need you to spend all that
time constantly downloading NEW datasheets?  Do you ever READ any of them?
How *trivial* are the designs if you are able to move on to MORE datasheets
after "using" the previous ones?

>>> I came across an individual with three virus scanners installed a few days ago.
>>> I didn't bother giving advice, I just left them to waste hours running scans.
>>> I did ask when they last found a virus and was confidently told "never".
>>
>> I have no such tools "installed", here.
> 
> Same here. Just the default Microsoft scanner.

Yet you allow updates -- to the OS?  Apps?  Even the malware scanner?

>> Every 6 months, I pull the disk from
>> this machine and check the disk pulled 6 months earlier with the "latest"
>> free AV scanner.  This gives the tool vendor a chance to catch up with
>> the latest exploits (a 6 month window) which a "current subscriber" can
>> only HOPE to gain protection.
>>
>> I've never found anything.  So, either the tools folks are using are
>> ineffective -- or, my internet behavior is pro-actively robust.
> 
> Well if you put yourself in prison you're not likely to be bothered by much from outside.

Gee, I have far more design and personal freedom than any of my colleagues!
And, have had such for decades, now.  So much so that they have started
"cutting the cord", as well.

You are likely RELIANT on the outside world.  Me? not so much.

>> Of course you have a network.  I have three 24-port switches in the office
>> (virtually all ports in use) and two 12's in my bedroom.  Is this NOT a network
>> because I can walk to all of the nodes?
>>
>> If a person has physical access to YOUR "network", then security is a moot
>> point.  Even an encrypted drive is vulnerable -- I *steal* it and I've
>> now effectively denied you service.
> 
> Plenty of people have physical access to my network.
> Most of them wouldn't know a switch from a banana.
> Those who would are trusted people.
> Untrusted people who might know what a switch is are simply not allowed anywhere near my physical LAN.

You've then confirmed my statement.  Or, do you just not like folks
to touch your things?

You can come and stay, overnight, in my guest room.  You can use either of
the two drops, there, to access The Internet.  You can look and see all of
the devices wired in to the house -- yet can't interfere with any of them
(let alone compromise any of them) without physically walking up to
them and "damaging" them.

Take a tesla coil and short it to the 8P8C's.  Well, there goes YOUR
internet access.  But, nothing else (including the switches!) cares.

>>> I could be writing this post from one country today and another tomorrow.
>>
>> As could I.  By using any NNTP agent on any internet connected machine.
>> Why does it have to be one of the machines on my air-gapped network?
> 
> Because you'd have missed your flight by the time you find and install one and what if you need that data sheet you left on your
> office computer?

If the datasheet CAME from The Internet, why can't I now relocate it
ON The Internet?

When you travel, do you not take a phone and/or laptop WITH you?
Do the places you visit not have libraries and public access places?
Do none of the colleagues/friends/businesses that you visit have
laptops or workstations that they will let you use?

NNTP, email, WWW are ubiquitous services.  There's no need to
burden yourself trying to support something "special".

> Sure you can download it but was that LT1234 or LT2341 or LTC1324? and what if you'd really like to have the LTSpice simulation you
> did at the office?

If I was going to be away from the office long enough that something that I
HADN'T PLANNED ON WORKING ON became significant, then I would be a piss poor
worker.

I was called home for a medical emergency.  I grabbed my checkbook (so I
would know what periodic bills were coming due along with the related
paying methods), a laptop and copied some files onto it.  The emergency
dragged on for 3 months.  I was never in need of anything that I didn't have
with me *or* that I couldn't get using a neighbor's AP (my folks don't
have internet service).

I was even able to design the artwork for some "aprons" and "book bags"
for the local library's volunteer organization and email the artwork to them.

True, I was unable to replant the tree that toppled in the back yard during
a storm that occurred while I was away.  But, my *work* was unaffected.

Having big projects makes it relatively easy to be able to work on *something*
even if it wasn't what you may have originally planned.

[The parts I tried to order this week are not here -- but, I can divert my
time to creating more test cases for my gesture recognizer.  Or, documenting
the virtual memory interface in my RTOS.  Or...]

>>> Countries I never go to (Mostly non-English speaking countries) are blocked inbound by pfsense.
>>
>> Wonderful.  And you have to maintain that.  Instead of doing "real work".
> 
> LOL these people maintain it for me:
> https://www.maxmind.com/en/home

They came over to your house to install it?  And, the updates?  And, rewrite
special rules for your access?  All for free??

>> Your browser can be fingerprinted.  They (the sites you visit) may not know
>> your *name* (yet) but, know that "you" are visiting site X, Y and Z.  Are
>> you sure they aren't sharing information about your visits?
> 
> Fairly sure yes. I can tell because You Tube doesn't offer relevant (or so it thinks) videos whenever I restart my browser.

That's specious reasoning.

"My house hasn't been burglarized so I *know* it is secure..."

>> The same is true of most developers -- especially folks writing software.
>> Have someone pay you to break the design you just "finished" and you (and
>> they) will forever see your *design* efforts in a different light!
>>
>> How hard to you work at trying to identify conditions that can/will break
>> your design?
> 
> Depends on what I'm designing and what it will be used for.

Ah, so you only care about quality *sometimes*?

>>>> [Do you think a 50 million LoC piece of software doesn't have tens of
>>>> thousands of latent bugs??  Bugs that can be identified, verified and
>>>> quantified without your ever being aware that this has happened?]
>>>>
>>>> Consider, carefully, what you really need access to outside of your own
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