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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Anyone that disagrees with this is not telling the truth --- V5
 --- Professor Sipser
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2024 08:32:26 -0500
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On 8/27/2024 3:23 AM, Mikko wrote:
> On 2024-08-22 04:22:11 +0000, olcott said:
> 
>> On 8/21/2024 10:35 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 8/21/24 11:26 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 8/21/2024 9:06 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 8/21/24 9:55 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 8/21/2024 8:45 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/21/24 9:23 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 8/21/2024 7:00 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 8/21/24 8:30 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/21/2024 3:01 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-21 03:01:38 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *We are only talking about one single point*
>>>>>>>>>>>> Professor Sipser must have understood that an HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>>>> that does abort is supposed predict what would happen
>>>>>>>>>>>> if it never aborted.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Professor Sipser understood that what is not a part of the text
>>>>>>>>>>> is not a part of the agreement. What H is required to predict
>>>>>>>>>>> is fully determined by the words "halt decider H". The previous
>>>>>>>>>>> word "simulating" refers to an implementation detail and does
>>>>>>>>>>> not affect the requirements.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 
>>>>>>>>>> 10/13/2022>
>>>>>>>>>>      If simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its input D
>>>>>>>>>>      until H correctly determines that its simulated D would 
>>>>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>>>>>      stop running unless aborted then
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>      H can abort its simulation of D and correctly report that D
>>>>>>>>>>      specifies a non-halting sequence of configurations.
>>>>>>>>>> </MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 
>>>>>>>>>> 10/13/2022>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It is crucial to the requirements in that it specifies that
>>>>>>>>>> H is required to predict
>>>>>>>>>> (a) The behavior specified by the finite string D
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which must include *ALL* of the code of the PROGRAM D, which 
>>>>>>>>> includes ALL the code of everything it calls, which includes H, 
>>>>>>>>> so with your system, changing H gives a DIFFERENT input, which 
>>>>>>>>> is not comparable in behavior to this input.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> (b) As measured by the correct partial simulation of D by H
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nope, by H correctly predicting, with a partial simulation of D 
>>>>>>>>> by H if possible, if the COMPLETE simulaiton by a "hypothetical 
>>>>>>>>> H" replacing H but not changing the input, would never halt.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> (c) When H would never abort its simulation of F
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Which, since that isn't the case, put you into the realm of 
>>>>>>>>> fantasy.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> (d) This includes H simulating itself simulating D
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Right, H must CORRECTLY predict the behavior of an UNABORTED 
>>>>>>>>> emulation of its input, and if, and only if, it can determine 
>>>>>>>>> that such an emulation would never halt, then it can abort its 
>>>>>>>>> emulation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Note, that is the emulation of this exact input, including D 
>>>>>>>>> calling the ORIGINAL H, not changing to the Hypothetical, since 
>>>>>>>>> by the rules of the field, the input is a fixed string, and 
>>>>>>>>> fully defines the behavior of the input.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You are contradicting yourself.
>>>>>>>> Your ADD may prevent you from
>>>>>>>> concentrating well enough to see this.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was right, you couldn't name it so you are just admiting that 
>>>>>>> you are a liar trying to create an ad hominem attack that failed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have been over this same point again and again and again and
>>>>>> your "rebuttal" is changing the subject or calling me stupid.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What "change of subject", I just point out what the words you try 
>>>>> to use actually mean, and why your claims are wrong by the rules of 
>>>>> the system you claim to be working in.
>>>>>
>>>>> The fact that you don't understand DOES make you stupid. I don't 
>>>>> say you are wrong because you are stupid, you are wrong because the 
>>>>> words you use don't mean what you think they do, and thus your 
>>>>> conclusions are just incorrect.
>>>>>
>>>>> That you seem to NEVER LEARN is what makes you stupid.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Professor Sipser clearly agreed that an H that does
>>>>>> a finite simulation of D is to predict the behavior
>>>>>> of an unlimited simulation of D.
>>>>>
>>>>> Right, H needs to predict in a finite number of steps, what an 
>>>>> unlimited simulation of this EXACT input, which means that it must 
>>>>> call the H that you claim to be getting the right answer, which is 
>>>>> the H that does abort and return non-halting.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> OK then you seem to have this correctly, unless you interpret
>>>> this as a self-contradiction.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Why do you think it could be a self-contradiction?
>>>
>>> It is an impossiblity for H to correctly due it, but that is why the 
>>> Halting Problem is non-computable.
>>>
>>
>> THIS EXACTLY MATCHES THE SIPSER APPROVED CRITERIA
>> The finite HHH(DDD) emulates itself emulating DDD exactly once
>> and this is sufficient for this HHH to predict what a different
>> HHH(DDD) do that never aborted its emulation of its input.
> 
> That is relevant only if the input specifies that the behaviour
> of that different HHH is a part of the behaviour of DDD.
> 

<MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>
     If simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its input D
     until H correctly determines that its simulated D *would never*
     *stop running unless aborted* then
<MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>

HHH is only required to correctly predict whether or not DDD
*would never stop running unless aborted*

_DDD()
[00002162] 55         push ebp
[00002163] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
[00002165] 6862210000 push 00002162
[0000216a] e853f4ffff call 000015c2
[0000216f] 83c404     add esp,+04
[00002172] 5d         pop ebp
[00002173] c3         ret
Size in bytes:(0018) [00002173]

*limited to 20,000,000 instructions*

  machine   stack     stack     machine     assembly
  address   address   data      code        language
  ========  ========  ========  ========== =============
[00002182][00103806][00000000] 55         push ebp      ; begin main
[00002183][00103806][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
[00002185][00103802][00002162] 6862210000 push 00002162 ; push DDD
[0000218a][001037fe][0000218f] e833f4ffff call 000015c2 ; call HHH
New slave_stack at:1038aa

Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:1138b2
[00002162][001138a2][001138a6] 55         push ebp
[00002163][001138a2][001138a6] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========