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Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design Subject: Re: Instead scopes Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 14:10:11 +1000 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 137 Message-ID: <vargni$bpg2$1@dont-email.me> References: <vakogj$316hg$1@dont-email.me> <4vtrcjpl9sp0lurrtf3ldcmhm58de156oo@4ax.com> <val7f8$33hu3$1@dont-email.me> <8f2tcj1832r0m6872hvp1fcrv8hsf3chsh@4ax.com> <vam90i$3bn2f$1@dont-email.me> <gjeucj5a7skeruudj8qcujc1f9b9t9o26r@4ax.com> <vanf8s$3h5er$1@dont-email.me> <mtjucjdqe2f91c2jsjp6011k0uvakuimog@4ax.com> <vap20i$1s5cl$1@solani.org> <8dv0djhj73b0ejudpkahnojgjk30i9rrbv@4ax.com> <je01dj177m9p0q25en4k2jm8u0bsj07t2j@4ax.com> <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me> <2h51djdqt936ap5e5vmu302mash05n6l7p@4ax.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 06:10:27 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="ed1659357dd9c5ce14643d010d7e66dc"; logging-data="386562"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18WdVOWDzUIj+t9nnbzlrWZ5fIr93T5d5E=" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:grcqxzekMTT+7TdL2oLNADQrgRw= X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <2h51djdqt936ap5e5vmu302mash05n6l7p@4ax.com> X-Antivirus: Norton (VPS 240829-6, 30/8/2024), Outbound message Bytes: 7321 On 30/08/2024 1:49 am, john larkin wrote: > On Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> > wrote: > >> On 30/08/2024 12:16 am, john larkin wrote: >>> On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 06:55:15 -0700, john larkin >>> <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote: >>> >>>> On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 05:46:54 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On a sunny day (Wed, 28 Aug 2024 09:32:58 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>> <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in <mtjucjdqe2f91c2jsjp6011k0uvakuimog@4ax.com>: >>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 15:21:00 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn >>>>>> <ksi@koi8.net> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote: >>>>>>>> On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 04:28:02 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn >>>>>>>> <ksi@koi8.net> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid >>>>>>>>>> <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b ?>>Any >>>>>>>>>>>> good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We like the Rigols.I recently acquired a >>>>>>>>>>>> Siglenthttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and gave it to one of my engineers. I'll ask him how he >>>>>>>>>>>> likes it.It has an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou out of nightmare states. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350 >>>>>>>>>>> dollars is intriguing. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> It sounds pretty good to me. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What's missing? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I like the 500 uV/div. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope >>>>>>>>> for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has >>>>>>>>> all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work >>>>>>>> >from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that >>>>>>>>> feels like relic next to those DHOs. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> We use almost all Rigols at work. My slow bench scope is a 500 MHz >>>>>>>> DS4034 (upgraded from 350 MHz) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ns08x686afbayjsw8c2ab/h?rlkey=iu4h89057t755pueg4ijnldbo&dl=0 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> and my fast scope is a Tek 11802 sampler. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I also have one, 11801C. Couple of SD-24s, SD-20, and SD-22 heads :) >>>>>> >>>>>> At the original purchase price, adjusted for inflation, I must have >>>>>> half a million dollars worth of sampling heads. >>>>>> >>>>>> The color grading and jitter measurement is great on the 11801C, but >>>>>> the old B+W screens photograph better. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'll miss my 11802 when it eventually dies. >>>>>> >>>>>> The TDR is great. I'm going to give my new kids a lecture on >>>>>> transmission lines, and I'll show them some TDR. >>>>>> >>>>>> It is apparently possible these days to get an EE degree and be >>>>>> completely ignorant of transmission lines. Or even electricity. >>>>> >>>>> oops! >>>>> >>>>> Then what DO they know? >>>> >>>> How to type c++ >>> >>> One issue here is that it's cheaper and easier to teach coding, than >>> it is to teach electronics. >>> >>> I walked through the Cornell EE school. I saw about 25 computer >>> screens and one oscilloscope. >> >> It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it >> is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to >> make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested. >> >> That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today >> than they did in the dark ages. > > Except that many recent EE grads don't know how to run LTSpice. They were trained on some other version of Spice? Or some other simulation program? > I guess you don't meet many young engineers any more. I'm treasurer of the NSW branch of the IEEE. I get to met a few from time to time. One had just finished a Ph.D. on a flexible implantable liquid crystal electrode for nerve cells (which you interrograted with a laser). I passed on one her papers to Australia's then chief scientist (whom I happened to know) who made his money out of measuring nerve cell potentials exactly. He liked the paper, but said it was thirty years too late for him. > I do. If they are really smart, I can teach them the basics in about a year. Or your version of the basics, which seems to be odd enough that they might take a year to find out what kind of responses you expect to get. > I've got two cases in my new design center. They've got my sympathy. > Today's lecture will be about transmission lines, starting with the > Pony Express and Morse and the first telegraphs, and the transatlantic > fiasco and Heaviside. Heaviside is where it starts to get interesting. William Thompson - later Lord Kelvin - was directly involved with the early transatlantic telegraph links. Heaviside came later. > I'll show them an LT Spice transmission line example on our giant new > OLED screen, and a real TDR on my 11802. What are you doing about the math? - not that I ever needed to get into that though it did prompt me to go for calculators that could handle hyperbolic trigometrical functions. -- Bill Sloman, Sydney