Path: ...!feeds.phibee-telecom.net!2.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DDD emulated by HHH --- (does not refer to prior posts)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 10:46:05 +0300
Organization: -
Lines: 84
Message-ID: <vartbt$dig4$1@dont-email.me>
References: <vajdta$2qe9s$1@dont-email.me> <vak3a0$2teq9$1@dont-email.me> <vakhnf$302rl$2@dont-email.me> <vamk7l$3d7ki$1@dont-email.me> <van3v7$3f6c0$5@dont-email.me> <vap7b1$3sobs$1@dont-email.me> <vapvbc$3vumk$5@dont-email.me>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2024 09:46:05 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="4b333d5be9a26e7490bb2e192e3cc0a9";
	logging-data="444932"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/+KQDe47TMeOKMhSSXOcPl"
User-Agent: Unison/2.2
Cancel-Lock: sha1:uG/0mdU1mB4irM0XZjyHmcdsPdM=
Bytes: 3838

On 2024-08-29 14:07:39 +0000, olcott said:

> On 8/29/2024 2:17 AM, Mikko wrote:
>> On 2024-08-28 12:08:06 +0000, olcott said:
>> 
>>> On 8/28/2024 2:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>> On 2024-08-27 12:44:31 +0000, olcott said:
>>>> 
>>>>> On 8/27/2024 3:38 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>> Op 27.aug.2024 om 04:33 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>> This is intended to be a stand-alone post that does not
>>>>>>> reference anything else mentioned in any other posts.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> void DDD()
>>>>>>> {
>>>>>>>    HHH(DDD);
>>>>>>>    return;
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>>>>>> [00002182] 5d         pop ebp
>>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> When we assume that:
>>>>>>> (a) HHH is an x86 emulator that is in the same memory space as DDD.
>>>>>>> (b) HHH emulates DDD according to the semantics of the x86 language.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> then we can see that DDD emulated by HHH cannot possibly get past
>>>>>>> its own machine address 0000217a.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Yes, we see. In fact DDD is not needed at all.
>>>>> 
>>>>> A straw man fallacy (sometimes written as strawman) is the informal 
>>>>> fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under 
>>>>> discussion...
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
>>>> 
>>>> You should also point a link to the equivocation fallacy. You use it
>>>> more often than straw man.
>>> 
>>> Isomorphism is not equivocation
>> 
>> The use of HHH for many purposes (a specific program, an unpsecified
>> memeber of a set of programs, a hypothetical program) is.
>> 
>> Your first posting looked like you were going to apply equivocation
>> later in the discussion. Now, after several later messages, it seems
>> that you want to apply the fallacy of "moving the goal posts" instead.
>> 
> 
> void EEE()
> {
>    HERE: goto HERE;
>    return;
> }
> 
> HHH correctly predicts what the behavior of EEE would
> be if this HHH never aborted its emulation of EEE.
> 
> void DDD()
> {
>    HHH(DDD);
>    return;
> }
> 
> HHH correctly predicts what the behavior of DDD would
> be if this HHH never aborted its emulation of DDD.

That's OK. Just be clear that HHH is not a halt decider.

Note that DDD does not care what HHH returns if it returns,
only whether it returns at all.

-- 
Mikko