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From: "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Ben Bacarisse fails understand that deciders COMPUTE THE MAPPING
 FROM INPUTS
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2024 17:46:44 +0200
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Op 31.aug.2024 om 14:57 schreef olcott:
> On 8/30/2024 8:46 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>> Op 30.aug.2024 om 15:05 schreef olcott:
>>> On 8/30/2024 3:32 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>> Op 29.aug.2024 om 23:13 schreef olcott:
>>>>>
>>>>> One cannot simply ignore the actual behavior of DDD emulated
>>>>> by HHH according to the semantics of the x86 language because
>>>>> this actual behavior is not the behavior that one expects or
>>>>> one would like to have.
>>>>
>>>> You cannot deny the semantics of the x86 language simply because you 
>>>> do not like it, or you prefer another behaviour.
>>>> The specification of the semantics of the x86 language does not give 
>>>> room for a context depending interpretation. It is independent on 
>>>> which processor, or which simulator processes this finite string.
>>>>
>>>
>>> *This is before any aborting occurs*
>>> *This is before any aborting occurs*
>>> *This is before any aborting occurs*
>>>
>>> The behavior of
>>> the directly executed DDD and executed HHH
>>> is different from the behavior of
>>> the emulated DDD and the emulated HHH
>>
>> Not according to the unmodified world calls simulator, which, when 
>> given the same input shows that the DDD based on the aborting HHH, halts.
>>
>>>
>>> and all four of them are emulated by the world
>>> class x86 emulator libx86emu
>>>
>>> It is easy to see that when the executed HHH emulates
>>> DDD that it does this correctly when we look at the
>>> execution trace and see the the first four instructions
>>> of DDD are listed.
>>>
>>> _DDD()
>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>> [00002182] 5d         pop ebp
>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>
>>> New slave_stack at:1038c4
>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:1138cc
>>> [00002172][001138bc][001138c0] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>> [00002173][001138bc][001138c0] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>> [00002175][001138b8][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>> [0000217a][001138b4][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>> New slave_stack at:14e2ec
>>> [00002172][0015e2e4][0015e2e8] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>> [00002173][0015e2e4][0015e2e8] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>> [00002175][0015e2e0][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>> [0000217a][0015e2dc][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>>>
>>> Then this emulated DDD calls an emulated HHH(DDD).
>>> It is easy to see that when the executed HHH emulates
>>> itself emulated DDD that it does this correctly when we
>>> look at the execution trace and see the the first four
>>> instructions of DDD are listed again.
>>>
>>>
>> And after a few recursions HHH sees a 'special condition' after which 
>> it aborts and halt. 
> 
> If you cannot see that this special condition conclusively
> proves that HHH must abort its emulation of DDD to prevent
> the infinite exection of DDD then you have insufficient
> technical competence.

I see that the abort has the advantage that it makes a halting program. 
Olcott's technical competence seem to be insufficient, however, to see 
that it also changes the behaviour of the simulated HHH.

> 
> If you can see this then you understand that this criteria has been met:
> 
> <MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>
>      If simulating halt decider H correctly simulates its input D
>      until H correctly determines that its simulated D would never
>      stop running unless aborted then
> <MIT Professor Sipser agreed to ONLY these verbatim words 10/13/2022>

Sipser agreed only with a correct simulation and a correct 
determination. But olcott's technical competence is insufficient to see 
that there is neither a correct simulation, nor an infinite recursion.

> 
> Here is is with 100 millions instructions and NO ABORT
Irrelevant.
Changing the subject again away from the aborting HHH to a dream of a 
non-aborting HHH. Dreams are no substitute for facts.
When the simulation of the aborting HHH is not aborted (such as in the 
simulation by the world class simulator), we see that the simulated HHH 
halts.
But the simulating HHH fails to reach that point of the simulation, 
which makes the simulation incorrect.