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From: "Fred. Zwarts" <F.Zwarts@HetNet.nl>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DDD emulated by HHH --- (does not refer to prior posts)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2024 17:49:30 +0200
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Op 31.aug.2024 om 17:19 schreef olcott:
> On 8/31/2024 9:59 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>> Op 31.aug.2024 om 14:03 schreef olcott:
>>> On 8/31/2024 4:07 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>> Op 30.aug.2024 om 16:58 schreef olcott:
>>>>> On 8/30/2024 9:56 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>> Am Thu, 29 Aug 2024 09:07:39 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>> On 8/29/2024 2:17 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-28 12:08:06 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>> On 8/28/2024 2:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-27 12:44:31 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/27/2024 3:38 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 27.aug.2024 om 04:33 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is intended to be a stand-alone post that does not 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reference
>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything else mentioned in any other posts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping [00002173]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping [00002175] 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6872210000 push
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 00002172 ; push DDD [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call
>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04 [00002182] 5d         pop 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> When we assume that:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) HHH is an x86 emulator that is in the same memory space as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD. (b) HHH emulates DDD according to the semantics of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> x86
>>>>>>>>>>>>> language.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> then we can see that DDD emulated by HHH cannot possibly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> get past
>>>>>>>>>>>>> its own machine address 0000217a.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we see. In fact DDD is not needed at all.
>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
>>>>>>>>>> You should also point a link to the equivocation fallacy. You 
>>>>>>>>>> use it
>>>>>>>>>> more often than straw man.
>>>>>>>>> Isomorphism is not equivocation
>>>>>>>> The use of HHH for many purposes (a specific program, an 
>>>>>>>> unpsecified
>>>>>>>> memeber of a set of programs, a hypothetical program) is.
>>>>>>>> Your first posting looked like you were going to apply equivocation
>>>>>>>> later in the discussion. Now, after several later messages, it 
>>>>>>>> seems
>>>>>>>> that you want to apply the fallacy of "moving the goal posts" 
>>>>>>>> instead.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> HHH correctly predicts what the behavior of DDD would be if this HHH
>>>>>>> never aborted its emulation of DDD.
>>>>>> Problem is, DDD is then not calling itself, but the non-input of a
>>>>>> not-aborting HHH.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *This is before any aborting occurs*
>>>>> *This is before any aborting occurs*
>>>>> *This is before any aborting occurs*
>>>>
>>>> Here is your problem. The code of the program and its meaning 
>>>> according to the semantics of the x86 language, does not suddenly 
>>>> change when the aborting occurs.
>>>
>>> You cannot possibly say one damn thing about the behavior of DDD
>>> until you first understand that a world class x86 emulator that
>>> HHH calls does enable HHH to correctly emulate itself emulating
>>> DDD and the following execution trace proves this.
>>>
>>
>> And when this unmodified world class x86 simulator was given olcott's 
>> DDD based on the aborting HHH as input, it showed that this has 
>> halting behaviour.
>> THIS IS A VERIFIED FACT! Even olcott has verified it.
>> This correct simulation by the unmodified world class simulator tells 
>> us that the program has a halting behaviour.
>> Your *modification* of the simulator stops the simulation before it 
>> can see the halting behaviour and decides that the input is non-halting.
>> We know which one is correct: the unmodified world class simulator, 
>> not the *modified* one, which aborts one cycle too soon..
>>
>> SO, it it not honest to suggest that we do not understand what the 
>> world class simulator predicts.
>>
>>> SE CANNOT POSSIBLY HAVE ANY HONEST DIALOGUE WHEN MY REVIEWERS
>>> INSIST ON LYING ABOUT VERIFIED FACTS.
>>
>> No evidence given. No reference to a single lie.
>> Olcott seems just a bit short of memory.
>> It is unclear why olcott hides these verified fact, which he knows are 
>> true.
>>
>>>
>>> _DDD()
>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>> [00002182] 5d         pop ebp
>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>
>>> _main()
>>> [00002192] 55         push ebp
>>> [00002193] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>> [00002195] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>> [0000219a] e833f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>> [0000219f] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>> [000021a2] 50         push eax
>>> [000021a3] 6843070000 push 00000743
>>> [000021a8] e8b5e5ffff call 00000762
>>> [000021ad] 83c408     add esp,+08
>>> [000021b0] 33c0       xor eax,eax
>>> [000021b2] 5d         pop ebp
>>> [000021b3] c3         ret
>>> Size in bytes:(0034) [000021b3]
>>>
>>>   machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
>>>   address   address   data      code       language
>>>   ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
>>> [00002192][00103820][00000000] 55         push ebp      ; Begin main()
>>> [00002193][00103820][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>> [00002195][0010381c][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>> [0000219a][00103818][0000219f] e833f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>
>>> New slave_stack at:1038c4
>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:1138cc
>>> [00002172][001138bc][001138c0] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>> [00002173][001138bc][001138c0] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>> [00002175][001138b8][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>> [0000217a][001138b4][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>> New slave_stack at:14e2ec
>>> [00002172][0015e2e4][0015e2e8] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>> [00002173][0015e2e4][0015e2e8] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>> [00002175][0015e2e0][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>> [0000217a][0015e2dc][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>>>
>>>
>> Still dreaming of the HHH that does an infinite recursion? 
> 
> Before we can proceed to the next step you must first agree
> that the second emulation of DDD by the emulated HHH is proven
> to be correct on the basis that it does emulate the first four
> instructions of DDD.
> 

I agree that the simulation makes a good start, but it fails to complete 
the simulation up to the end, making the simulation as a whole incorrect.
We cannot proceed before you understand this.