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From: Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Indirect Reference Changes the Behavior of DDD() relative to DDD emulated by HHH
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2024 14:41:36 +0300
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On 2024-08-31 15:47:46 +0000, Fred. Zwarts said:

> Op 31.aug.2024 om 17:22 schreef olcott:
>> On 8/31/2024 10:15 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>> Op 31.aug.2024 om 14:50 schreef olcott:
>>>> On 8/30/2024 8:31 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-08-29 14:04:05 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 8/29/2024 3:00 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2024-08-28 11:46:58 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 8/28/2024 2:33 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-27 13:04:26 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/27/2024 12:45 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Am Mon, 26 Aug 2024 18:03:41 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/26/2024 7:42 AM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mike Terry <news.dead.person.stones@darjeeling.plus.com> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 23/08/2024 22:07, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We don't really know what context Sipser was given.  I got in touch
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at the time so I do know he had enough context to know that PO's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ideas were "wacky" and that had agreed to what he considered a "minor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remark". Since PO considers his words finely crafted and key to his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so-called work I think it's clear that Sipser did not take the "minor
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remark" he agreed to to mean what PO takes it to mean!  My own take
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if that he (Sipser) read it as a general remark about how to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> determine some cases, i.e. that D names an input that H can partially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulate to determine it's halting or otherwise.  We all know or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could construct some such cases.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Exactly my reading.  It makes Sipser's agreement natural, because it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is both correct [with sensible interpretation of terms], and moreover
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> describes an obvious strategy that a partial decider might use that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can decide halting for some specific cases.  No need for Sipser to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deceptive or misleading here, when the truth suffices.  (In particular
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no need to employ "tricksy" vacuous truth get out clauses just to get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PO off his back as some have suggested.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, and it fits with his thinking it a "trivial remark".
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That aside, it's such an odd way to present an argument: "I managed to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> trick X into saying 'yes' to something vague".  In any reasonable
>>>>>>>>>>>>> collegiate exchange you'd go back and check: "So even when D is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> constructed from H, H can return based on what /would/ happen if H did
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not stop simulating so that H(D,D) == false is correct even though D(D)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> halts?".  Just imagine what Sipser would say to that!
>>>>>>>>>>> Is this an accurate phrasing, pete?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Deciders never compute the mapping of the computation
>>>>>>>>>> that they themselves are contained within.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Why not? A decider always either accepts or rejects its input.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The computation that they themselves are contained within cannot
>>>>>>>> possibly be an input.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> What would prevent that if the input language permits computations?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> When a TM takes its own machine description as input
>>>>>> this is not always that same behavior as the direct
>>>>>> execution of the machine. It is not the same because
>>>>>> it is one level of indirect reference away.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Now you contradict what you said above. You said that deciders never
>>>>> conpute the mapping of the computation they themselves are contained
>>>>> within.
>>>> 
>>>> Although deciders cannot possibly see their own behavior
>>>> other people can see this behavior.
>>>> 
>>>>> Now you are saying that they do in a way that might not be
>>>>> as expected.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> If is a verified fact that DDD has different behavior
>>>> before it is aborted in the same way that people are
>>>> hungry before they eat.
>>> 
>>> No, the behaviour specified by the finite string does not change when a 
>>> simulator decides to do the simulation only halfway. It is just an 
>>> incorrect simulation.
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> than the behavior of DDD after it has been aborted,
>>>> people are not hungry after they eat.
>>> 
>>> If two people are hungry and one of them eats, the other one is still 
>>> hungry and needs to eat. It is stupid to say that they are no longer 
>>> hungry because they have eaten.
>>> Similarly the simulating HHH is not longer hungry, but the simulated 
>>> HHH still is hungry and has not yet eaten.
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> The direct execution of DDD includes the behavior
>>>> of the emulated DDD after it has been aborted.
>>> 
>>> And the simulator should also simulate until it sees the behaviour of 
>>> after the simulated HHH has aborted its simulator.
>> 
>> THIS IS ONLY YOUR OWN FREAKING STUPIDITY.
> No evidence for this ad hominem attack. So, my claim still stands.

You have given more than enough evidence.

-- 
Mikko