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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DDD emulated by HHH --- (does not refer to prior posts)
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2024 08:31:23 -0500
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On 9/1/2024 6:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
> On 2024-08-31 16:18:26 +0000, olcott said:
> 
>> On 8/31/2024 10:49 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>> Op 31.aug.2024 om 17:19 schreef olcott:
>>>> On 8/31/2024 9:59 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>> Op 31.aug.2024 om 14:03 schreef olcott:
>>>>>> On 8/31/2024 4:07 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>> Op 30.aug.2024 om 16:58 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>> On 8/30/2024 9:56 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Am Thu, 29 Aug 2024 09:07:39 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/29/2024 2:17 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-28 12:08:06 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/28/2024 2:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-27 12:44:31 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/27/2024 3:38 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 27.aug.2024 om 04:33 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is intended to be a stand-alone post that does not 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reference
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything else mentioned in any other posts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002173]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping [00002175] 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6872210000 push
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 00002172 ; push DDD [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 000015d2 ; call
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04 [00002182] 5d         
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pop ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When we assume that:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) HHH is an x86 emulator that is in the same memory 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> space as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD. (b) HHH emulates DDD according to the semantics of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the x86
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> language.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then we can see that DDD emulated by HHH cannot possibly 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get past
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its own machine address 0000217a.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we see. In fact DDD is not needed at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You should also point a link to the equivocation fallacy. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You use it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> more often than straw man.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Isomorphism is not equivocation
>>>>>>>>>>> The use of HHH for many purposes (a specific program, an 
>>>>>>>>>>> unpsecified
>>>>>>>>>>> memeber of a set of programs, a hypothetical program) is.
>>>>>>>>>>> Your first posting looked like you were going to apply 
>>>>>>>>>>> equivocation
>>>>>>>>>>> later in the discussion. Now, after several later messages, 
>>>>>>>>>>> it seems
>>>>>>>>>>> that you want to apply the fallacy of "moving the goal posts" 
>>>>>>>>>>> instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> HHH correctly predicts what the behavior of DDD would be if 
>>>>>>>>>> this HHH
>>>>>>>>>> never aborted its emulation of DDD.
>>>>>>>>> Problem is, DDD is then not calling itself, but the non-input of a
>>>>>>>>> not-aborting HHH.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *This is before any aborting occurs*
>>>>>>>> *This is before any aborting occurs*
>>>>>>>> *This is before any aborting occurs*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here is your problem. The code of the program and its meaning 
>>>>>>> according to the semantics of the x86 language, does not suddenly 
>>>>>>> change when the aborting occurs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You cannot possibly say one damn thing about the behavior of DDD
>>>>>> until you first understand that a world class x86 emulator that
>>>>>> HHH calls does enable HHH to correctly emulate itself emulating
>>>>>> DDD and the following execution trace proves this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And when this unmodified world class x86 simulator was given 
>>>>> olcott's DDD based on the aborting HHH as input, it showed that 
>>>>> this has halting behaviour.
>>>>> THIS IS A VERIFIED FACT! Even olcott has verified it.
>>>>> This correct simulation by the unmodified world class simulator 
>>>>> tells us that the program has a halting behaviour.
>>>>> Your *modification* of the simulator stops the simulation before it 
>>>>> can see the halting behaviour and decides that the input is non- 
>>>>> halting.
>>>>> We know which one is correct: the unmodified world class simulator, 
>>>>> not the *modified* one, which aborts one cycle too soon..
>>>>>
>>>>> SO, it it not honest to suggest that we do not understand what the 
>>>>> world class simulator predicts.
>>>>>
>>>>>> SE CANNOT POSSIBLY HAVE ANY HONEST DIALOGUE WHEN MY REVIEWERS
>>>>>> INSIST ON LYING ABOUT VERIFIED FACTS.
>>>>>
>>>>> No evidence given. No reference to a single lie.
>>>>> Olcott seems just a bit short of memory.
>>>>> It is unclear why olcott hides these verified fact, which he knows 
>>>>> are true.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>>>>> [00002182] 5d         pop ebp
>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _main()
>>>>>> [00002192] 55         push ebp
>>>>>> [00002193] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>>>>> [00002195] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>> [0000219a] e833f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>> [0000219f] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>>>>> [000021a2] 50         push eax
>>>>>> [000021a3] 6843070000 push 00000743
>>>>>> [000021a8] e8b5e5ffff call 00000762
>>>>>> [000021ad] 83c408     add esp,+08
>>>>>> [000021b0] 33c0       xor eax,eax
>>>>>> [000021b2] 5d         pop ebp
>>>>>> [000021b3] c3         ret
>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0034) [000021b3]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
>>>>>>   address   address   data      code       language
>>>>>>   ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
>>>>>> [00002192][00103820][00000000] 55         push ebp      ; Begin 
>>>>>> main()
>>>>>> [00002193][00103820][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; 
>>>>>> housekeeping
>>>>>> [00002195][0010381c][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>> [0000219a][00103818][0000219f] e833f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call 
>>>>>> HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> New slave_stack at:1038c4
>>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored 
>>>>>> at:1138cc
>>>>>> [00002172][001138bc][001138c0] 55         push ebp      ; 
>>>>>> housekeeping
>>>>>> [00002173][001138bc][001138c0] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; 
>>>>>> housekeeping
>>>>>> [00002175][001138b8][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>> [0000217a][001138b4][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call 
>>>>>> HHH(DDD)
>>>>>> New slave_stack at:14e2ec
>>>>>> [00002172][0015e2e4][0015e2e8] 55         push ebp      ; 
>>>>>> housekeeping
>>>>>> [00002173][0015e2e4][0015e2e8] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; 
>>>>>> housekeeping
>>>>>> [00002175][0015e2e0][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>> [0000217a][0015e2dc][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call 
>>>>>> HHH(DDD)
>>>>>> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Still dreaming of the HHH that does an infinite recursion?
>>>>
>>>> Before we can proceed to the next step you must first agree
>>>> that the second emulation of DDD by the emulated HHH is proven
>>>> to be correct on the basis that it does emulate the first four
>>>> instructions of DDD.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I agree that the simulation makes a good start, but it fails to 
>>> complete the simulation up to the end, making the simulation as a 
>>> whole incorrect.
========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========