Path: ...!news.mixmin.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Subject: Re: OT Politics Re: Three Body Problem
Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2024 17:28:23 -0400
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 112
Message-ID: <vb5alp$30dbo$1@dont-email.me>
References: <va2udf$3gr1g$1@dont-email.me>
 <gvbgcj1uo1mlmalmvtern68ubsu4ngal8p@4ax.com> <va9g12$r3a0$1@dont-email.me>
 <q0chcjdsgao14sb3joh95kcv9u0qb6o9if@4ax.com> <vadcph$1fq7s$1@dont-email.me>
 <vadkfh$1hvr7$1@epsilon3.eternal-september.org>
 <lijmcjpri12qri0tegvll87j7aqri3r4vu@4ax.com> <vag8aa$23fn8$1@dont-email.me>
 <tr8pcjlddtvuc33njg9o6jhcge6idlj0r7@4ax.com> <vaif8j$2i9nd$1@dont-email.me>
 <5428djlrjs2f5go01coosacjapf9lmb907@4ax.com> <vb2st3$1lpla$1@dont-email.me>
 <brmbdj9vk1gufjmstj4cltlq25ncj7be4r@4ax.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2024 23:28:26 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="8674baa754846c1122f9e17ed1bfafee";
	logging-data="3159416"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18kQjoCK/ahs2aTcyvmwUPm"
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
 Firefox/91.0 SeaMonkey/2.53.18.2
Cancel-Lock: sha1:xBABJdOcBu552ZOxuKrJFCYpCn4=
In-Reply-To: <brmbdj9vk1gufjmstj4cltlq25ncj7be4r@4ax.com>
Bytes: 6566

Paul S Person wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 19:21:01 -0400, William Hyde <wthyde1953@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> The Horny Goat wrote:
>>> On Mon, 26 Aug 2024 13:50:10 -0400, William Hyde
>>> <wthyde1953@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Once I realized that in some states people can vote in the primary of
>>>> the other party (Nixon encouraged republicans to vote in democratic
>>>> primaries for McGovern), I lost all confidence in the primary system.
>>>>
>>>> Mind you, our method of selecting potential members of parliament is
>>>> even worse.
>>>
>>> How so? In Canada you actually have to join the party of your choice
>>> in order to vote in what in the US would be a primary.
>>
>> Or, for $10 and a bottle of cheap booze you can agree to become a paid
>> member of some party or other, go to a nomination meeting, vote as
>> requested, then go back to the street to enjoy your booze.
>>
>> Or, you can be bused in by a German crook to vote for delegates who will
>> vote for his preferred bought and paid for party leader.
>>
>> Or, you can be a foreign student drafted by officials of your country to
>> vote for the candidate of your choice in a nomination meeting, despite
>> not being a citizen.
>>
>> Or, not being a citizen, you can run for MPP, be elected, and become a
>> cabinet member in a government dedicated to destroying the country.
>>
>> All of this has been in the news.  Some recently.
>>
>> Nobody should be allowed to vote in a nomination meeting who is not
>>
>> (a) A citizen
>>
>> (b) A paid member of the party for at least a year.
>>
>> That wouldn't eliminate all the abuses but it is easily implemented and
>> would render the system less laughably corruptible.
>>
>> But our major parties don't want it.  It would handicap their ability to
>> impose preferred candidates on us.
> 
> On those rare occasions when I think about this topic, for the last
> several times, my preferred solution to the Primary Problem is:
> 
> 1) Any Party that wants a Primary (preferential or one that actually
> chooses the candidate) can have one by providing the relevant State
> official:
> 	a) a Ballot list containing the offices and candidates to be
> voted on; and
> 	b) a Party Member List containing the names and addresses of
> all those to whom a ballot is to be mailed.
> 2) The State would pay for administering the Primary so that, under
> the ancient principle "he who pays the piper calls the tune" the State
> can control how it is done. [1]
> 3) An individual who is a member of more than one Party may receive
> and may vote on a Primary from each of those parties.
> 
> This will eliminate using the Primaries as a recruiting scheme for new
> members.
> 
> [1] Depending on the laws passed by the Legislature, this could
> include ensuring that only registered voters are actually sent
> ballots. Then again, those laws might require that the lists be used
> as-is, since a Party can surely enroll a non-registered-voter if it
> wishes to. States with two-tier registrations (State vs Federal) may
> have special requirements here. Citizenship may also vary a bit,
> depending on what the laws actually say. Other requirements (not being
> a convicted felon, for example) may apply as well.
> 
> I am divided on the citizenship issue: one the one hand, it makes a
> great deal of sense to exclude non-citizens; on the other hand, we
> claim to have /universal/ suffrage. If we limit it to citizens, what
> is to stop us from limiting it to Men? Or WASPs? Or landowners? And
> some very local issues might not unreasonably include non-citizens who
> live in the area affected.

We have universal adult citizen suffrage.  Except for the chief 
electoral officer, who cannot vote.

You have universal sane adult non-felon citizen suffrage for  people who 
are not residents of DC or certain other areas.

That's the theory, anyway. If I've missed any exceptions I'd be glad to 
hear of them.


But neither of us lives in a country like Athens, where non-citizens 
could only rarely become citizens, or even republican Rome, where 
citizenship could be earned, sometimes, by a long stint in the 
auxiliaries (or by befriending a powerful politician) but in no 
systematic predictable way.

In our countries citizenship can be earned in a manner which requires 
some time and commitment, but is not particularly onerous. If one is not 
prepared to make  that much effort, one should not expect the franchise.

Yes, many native born citizens can't pass citizenship tests.  But the 
concept of voter tests has been poisoned by the uses it was put to in 
the past.  Some people have the luck to be born here.  I am certainly 
aware of how lucky I am in that.

True, had I been born in the USSR I would doubtless have become a much 
better chess player.   But I'd also have died long ago. Not quite worth 
it, even if I had a dozen games published in the Informant.

William Hyde