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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DDD emulated by HHH --- (does not refer to prior posts)
Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2024 08:17:00 -0500
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On 9/4/2024 4:56 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
> Op 03.sep.2024 om 15:58 schreef olcott:
>> On 9/3/2024 3:52 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>> On 2024-09-02 13:31:23 +0000, olcott said:
>>>
>>>> On 9/1/2024 6:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-08-31 16:18:26 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8/31/2024 10:49 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>> Op 31.aug.2024 om 17:19 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>> On 8/31/2024 9:59 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Op 31.aug.2024 om 14:03 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/31/2024 4:07 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Op 30.aug.2024 om 16:58 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/2024 9:56 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Thu, 29 Aug 2024 09:07:39 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/29/2024 2:17 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-28 12:08:06 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/28/2024 2:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-27 12:44:31 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/27/2024 3:38 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 27.aug.2024 om 04:33 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is intended to be a stand-alone post that does 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not reference
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything else mentioned in any other posts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002173]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping [00002175] 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6872210000 push
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 00002172 ; push DDD [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 000015d2 ; call
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04 [00002182] 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5d         pop ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret Size in bytes:(0018) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When we assume that:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) HHH is an x86 emulator that is in the same 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> memory space as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD. (b) HHH emulates DDD according to the semantics 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the x86
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> language.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then we can see that DDD emulated by HHH cannot 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly get past
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its own machine address 0000217a.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we see. In fact DDD is not needed at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You should also point a link to the equivocation 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fallacy. You use it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more often than straw man.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Isomorphism is not equivocation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The use of HHH for many purposes (a specific program, an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unpsecified
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> memeber of a set of programs, a hypothetical program) is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your first posting looked like you were going to apply 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equivocation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> later in the discussion. Now, after several later 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> messages, it seems
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that you want to apply the fallacy of "moving the goal 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> posts" instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH correctly predicts what the behavior of DDD would be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if this HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> never aborted its emulation of DDD.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Problem is, DDD is then not calling itself, but the non- 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> input of a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not-aborting HHH.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *This is before any aborting occurs*
>>>>>>>>>>>> *This is before any aborting occurs*
>>>>>>>>>>>> *This is before any aborting occurs*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Here is your problem. The code of the program and its meaning 
>>>>>>>>>>> according to the semantics of the x86 language, does not 
>>>>>>>>>>> suddenly change when the aborting occurs.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You cannot possibly say one damn thing about the behavior of DDD
>>>>>>>>>> until you first understand that a world class x86 emulator that
>>>>>>>>>> HHH calls does enable HHH to correctly emulate itself emulating
>>>>>>>>>> DDD and the following execution trace proves this.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And when this unmodified world class x86 simulator was given 
>>>>>>>>> olcott's DDD based on the aborting HHH as input, it showed that 
>>>>>>>>> this has halting behaviour.
>>>>>>>>> THIS IS A VERIFIED FACT! Even olcott has verified it.
>>>>>>>>> This correct simulation by the unmodified world class simulator 
>>>>>>>>> tells us that the program has a halting behaviour.
>>>>>>>>> Your *modification* of the simulator stops the simulation 
>>>>>>>>> before it can see the halting behaviour and decides that the 
>>>>>>>>> input is non- halting.
>>>>>>>>> We know which one is correct: the unmodified world class 
>>>>>>>>> simulator, not the *modified* one, which aborts one cycle too 
>>>>>>>>> soon..
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> SO, it it not honest to suggest that we do not understand what 
>>>>>>>>> the world class simulator predicts.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> SE CANNOT POSSIBLY HAVE ANY HONEST DIALOGUE WHEN MY REVIEWERS
>>>>>>>>>> INSIST ON LYING ABOUT VERIFIED FACTS.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No evidence given. No reference to a single lie.
>>>>>>>>> Olcott seems just a bit short of memory.
>>>>>>>>> It is unclear why olcott hides these verified fact, which he 
>>>>>>>>> knows are true.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>> [00002182] 5d         pop ebp
>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _main()
>>>>>>>>>> [00002192] 55         push ebp
>>>>>>>>>> [00002193] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>>>>>>>>> [00002195] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>>> [0000219a] e833f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>> [0000219f] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>> [000021a2] 50         push eax
>>>>>>>>>> [000021a3] 6843070000 push 00000743
>>>>>>>>>> [000021a8] e8b5e5ffff call 00000762
>>>>>>>>>> [000021ad] 83c408     add esp,+08
>>>>>>>>>> [000021b0] 33c0       xor eax,eax
>>>>>>>>>> [000021b2] 5d         pop ebp
>>>>>>>>>> [000021b3] c3         ret
>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0034) [000021b3]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>   machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
>>>>>>>>>>   address   address   data      code       language
>>>>>>>>>>   ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
>>>>>>>>>> [00002192][00103820][00000000] 55         push ebp      ; 
>>>>>>>>>> Begin main()
>>>>>>>>>> [00002193][00103820][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; 
>>>>>>>>>> housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>> [00002195][0010381c][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push 
>>>>>>>>>> DDD
>>>>>>>>>> [0000219a][00103818][0000219f] e833f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call 
>>>>>>>>>> HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> New slave_stack at:1038c4
>>>>>>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored 
>>>>>>>>>> at:1138cc
>>>>>>>>>> [00002172][001138bc][001138c0] 55         push ebp      ; 
>>>>>>>>>> housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>> [00002173][001138bc][001138c0] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; 
>>>>>>>>>> housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>> [00002175][001138b8][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push 
>>>>>>>>>> DDD
>>>>>>>>>> [0000217a][001138b4][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call 
>>>>>>>>>> HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>> New slave_stack at:14e2ec
>>>>>>>>>> [00002172][0015e2e4][0015e2e8] 55         push ebp      ; 
>>>>>>>>>> housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>> [00002173][0015e2e4][0015e2e8] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; 
>>>>>>>>>> housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>> [00002175][0015e2e0][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push 
>>>>>>>>>> DDD
>>>>>>>>>> [0000217a][0015e2dc][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call 
>>>>>>>>>> HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation 
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