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From: Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi>
Newsgroups: sci.logic
Subject: Re: This makes all Analytic(Olcott) truth computable --- truth-bearer
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 2024 10:47:24 +0300
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On 2024-09-03 12:58:32 +0000, olcott said:

> On 9/3/2024 5:49 AM, Mikko wrote:
>> On 2024-09-02 12:44:57 +0000, olcott said:
>> 
>>> On 9/2/2024 3:22 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>> On 2024-09-01 13:41:57 +0000, olcott said:
>>>> 
>>>>> On 9/1/2024 7:30 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>> On 2024-08-31 12:18:20 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 8/31/2024 3:43 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-30 14:45:32 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/2024 8:36 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-29 13:36:00 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/29/2024 3:12 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-28 12:14:47 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/28/2024 2:45 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-24 03:26:39 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/23/2024 3:34 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-22 13:23:39 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/22/2024 7:06 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-21 12:47:37 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Formal systems kind of sort of has some vague idea of what True
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> means. Tarski "proved" that there is no True(L,x) that can be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consistently defined.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Tarski%27s_undefinability_theorem#General_form
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *The defined predicate True(L,x) fixed that*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unless expression x has a connection (through a sequence
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of true preserving operations) in system F to its semantic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meanings expressed in language L of F then x is simply
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> untrue in F.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whenever there is no sequence of truth preserving from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> x or ~x to its meaning in L of F then x has no truth- maker
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in F and x not a truth-bearer in F. We never get to x is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> undecidable in F.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tarski proved that True is undefineable in certain formal systems.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your definition is not expressible in F, at least not as a definition.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Like ZFC redefined the foundation of all sets I redefine
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the foundation of all formal systems.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You cannot redefine the foundation of all formal systems. Every formal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> system has the foundation it has and that cannot be changed. Formal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> systems are eternal and immutable.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then According to your reasoning ZFC is wrong because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is not allowed to redefine the foundation of set
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theory.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It did not redefine anything. It is just another theory. It is called
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a set theory because its terms have many similarities to Cnator's sets.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It <is> the correct set theory. Naive set theory
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is tossed out on its ass for being WRONG.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no basis to say that ZF is more or less correct than ZFC.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> A set containing itself has always been incoherent in its
>>>>>>>>>>> isomorphism to the concrete instance of a can of soup so
>>>>>>>>>>> totally containing itself that it has no outside surface.
>>>>>>>>>>> The above words are my own unique creation.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> There is no need for an isomorphism between a set an a can of soup.
>>>>>>>>>> There is nothing inherently incoherent in Quine's atom. Some set
>>>>>>>>>> theories allow it, some don't. Cantor's theory does not say either
>>>>>>>>>> way.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Quine atoms (named after Willard Van Orman Quine) are sets that only 
>>>>>>>>> contain themselves, that is, sets that satisfy the formula x = {x}.
>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urelement#Quine_atoms
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Wrongo. This is exactly isomorphic to the incoherent notion of a
>>>>>>>>> can of soup so totally containing itself that it has no outside
>>>>>>>>> boundary.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> As I already said, that isomorphism is not needed. It is not useful.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It proves incoherence at a deeper level.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> No, it does not. If you want to get an incoherence proven you need
>>>>>> to prove it yourself.
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> When you try to imagine a can of soup that soup totally contains
>>>>> itself that it has no outside boundary you can see that this is 
>>>>> impossible because it is incoherent.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It requires simultaneous mutually exclusive properties.
>>>>> (a) It must have an outside surface because all physical
>>>>> things have an outside surface.
>>>> 
>>>> Perhaps physical things in some sense have an outside surface but
>>>> that surface is not a part of the thing. We get the imression of
>>>> a surface because the resolution of our eyes and other senses is
>>>> too coarse to observe the small details of physical things.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> No it has an actual surface. When we pick up a ball
>>> we touch its surface. If is had no outer surface we
>>> could not pick up a ball.
>>> 
>>>>> (b) It must not have an outside surface otherwise it is
>>>>> not totally containing itself.
>>>> 
>>>> It hasn't.
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> If it has no outside surface then it does not physically exist
>> 
>> In that case nothing physically exists. Every outside surface is
>> merely an illusion.
>> 
> 
> Nothing that no outside surface exists.
> Since I can touch a cup with my fingers
> this proves that the cup and my fingers
> have an outside surface.

That is an unphysical illusion. There is nothing in the cup
and fingers other than atoms. Atoms don't have a surface.
You get a false impression because your senses don't sense
small details.

-- 
Mikko