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From: Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: DDD emulated by HHH --- (does not refer to prior posts)
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2024 13:22:17 +0300
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On 2024-09-03 13:58:27 +0000, olcott said:

> On 9/3/2024 3:52 AM, Mikko wrote:
>> On 2024-09-02 13:31:23 +0000, olcott said:
>> 
>>> On 9/1/2024 6:05 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>> On 2024-08-31 16:18:26 +0000, olcott said:
>>>> 
>>>>> On 8/31/2024 10:49 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>> Op 31.aug.2024 om 17:19 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>> On 8/31/2024 9:59 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>> Op 31.aug.2024 om 14:03 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>> On 8/31/2024 4:07 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Op 30.aug.2024 om 16:58 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/30/2024 9:56 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Thu, 29 Aug 2024 09:07:39 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/29/2024 2:17 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-28 12:08:06 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/28/2024 2:39 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-27 12:44:31 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 8/27/2024 3:38 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Op 27.aug.2024 om 04:33 schreef olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is intended to be a stand-alone post that does not reference
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything else mentioned in any other posts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping [00002173]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping [00002175] 6872210000 push
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 00002172 ; push DDD [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04 [00002182] 5d         pop ebp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When we assume that:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (a) HHH is an x86 emulator that is in the same memory space as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD. (b) HHH emulates DDD according to the semantics of the x86
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> language.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then we can see that DDD emulated by HHH cannot possibly get past
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its own machine address 0000217a.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we see. In fact DDD is not needed at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You should also point a link to the equivocation fallacy. You use it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more often than straw man.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Isomorphism is not equivocation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The use of HHH for many purposes (a specific program, an unpsecified
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> memeber of a set of programs, a hypothetical program) is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your first posting looked like you were going to apply equivocation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> later in the discussion. Now, after several later messages, it seems
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that you want to apply the fallacy of "moving the goal posts" instead.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH correctly predicts what the behavior of DDD would be if this HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>> never aborted its emulation of DDD.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Problem is, DDD is then not calling itself, but the non-input of a
>>>>>>>>>>>> not-aborting HHH.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> *This is before any aborting occurs*
>>>>>>>>>>> *This is before any aborting occurs*
>>>>>>>>>>> *This is before any aborting occurs*
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Here is your problem. The code of the program and its meaning according 
>>>>>>>>>> to the semantics of the x86 language, does not suddenly change when the 
>>>>>>>>>> aborting occurs.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> You cannot possibly say one damn thing about the behavior of DDD
>>>>>>>>> until you first understand that a world class x86 emulator that
>>>>>>>>> HHH calls does enable HHH to correctly emulate itself emulating
>>>>>>>>> DDD and the following execution trace proves this.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> And when this unmodified world class x86 simulator was given olcott's 
>>>>>>>> DDD based on the aborting HHH as input, it showed that this has halting 
>>>>>>>> behaviour.
>>>>>>>> THIS IS A VERIFIED FACT! Even olcott has verified it.
>>>>>>>> This correct simulation by the unmodified world class simulator tells 
>>>>>>>> us that the program has a halting behaviour.
>>>>>>>> Your *modification* of the simulator stops the simulation before it can 
>>>>>>>> see the halting behaviour and decides that the input is non- halting.
>>>>>>>> We know which one is correct: the unmodified world class simulator, not 
>>>>>>>> the *modified* one, which aborts one cycle too soon..
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> SO, it it not honest to suggest that we do not understand what the 
>>>>>>>> world class simulator predicts.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> SE CANNOT POSSIBLY HAVE ANY HONEST DIALOGUE WHEN MY REVIEWERS
>>>>>>>>> INSIST ON LYING ABOUT VERIFIED FACTS.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> No evidence given. No reference to a single lie.
>>>>>>>> Olcott seems just a bit short of memory.
>>>>>>>> It is unclear why olcott hides these verified fact, which he knows are true.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>>>>>>>> [00002182] 5d         pop ebp
>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> _main()
>>>>>>>>> [00002192] 55         push ebp
>>>>>>>>> [00002193] 8bec       mov ebp,esp
>>>>>>>>> [00002195] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>> [0000219a] e833f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>> [0000219f] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>>>>>>>> [000021a2] 50         push eax
>>>>>>>>> [000021a3] 6843070000 push 00000743
>>>>>>>>> [000021a8] e8b5e5ffff call 00000762
>>>>>>>>> [000021ad] 83c408     add esp,+08
>>>>>>>>> [000021b0] 33c0       xor eax,eax
>>>>>>>>> [000021b2] 5d         pop ebp
>>>>>>>>> [000021b3] c3         ret
>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0034) [000021b3]
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>   machine   stack     stack     machine    assembly
>>>>>>>>>   address   address   data      code       language
>>>>>>>>>   ========  ========  ========  =========  =============
>>>>>>>>> [00002192][00103820][00000000] 55         push ebp      ; Begin main()
>>>>>>>>> [00002193][00103820][00000000] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>> [00002195][0010381c][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>> [0000219a][00103818][0000219f] e833f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> New slave_stack at:1038c4
>>>>>>>>> Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation   Execution Trace Stored at:1138cc
>>>>>>>>> [00002172][001138bc][001138c0] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>> [00002173][001138bc][001138c0] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>> [00002175][001138b8][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>> [0000217a][001138b4][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>> New slave_stack at:14e2ec
>>>>>>>>> [00002172][0015e2e4][0015e2e8] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>> [00002173][0015e2e4][0015e2e8] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>> [00002175][0015e2e0][00002172] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>> [0000217a][0015e2dc][0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Still dreaming of the HHH that does an infinite recursion?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Before we can proceed to the next step you must first agree
>>>>>>> that the second emulation of DDD by the emulated HHH is proven
>>>>>>> to be correct on the basis that it does emulate the first four
>>>>>>> instructions of DDD.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I agree that the simulation makes a good start, but it fails to 
>>>>>> complete the simulation up to the end, making the simulation as a whole 
>>>>>> incorrect.
>>>>>> We cannot proceed before you understand this.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Here is no abort and x86utm emulating 100,000,000 instructions.
>>>> 
>>>> What happens after those 100 000 000 instructions are executed?
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> I just showed you what happens immediately below. It shows
>>> that 100,000,000 million instructions were executed and the
>>> full trace requires 1,492,537 Pages.
>> 
>> But does not abort the exectuion?
>> 
> 
> _DDD()
> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
> [00002173] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04
> [00002182] 5d         pop ebp
> [00002183] c3         ret
> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
> 
> Anyone that is not dumber than a box of rocks can tell
> that machine address 0000217f is unreachable for every
> DDD emulated by HHH according to the semantics of the
> x86 language where HHH emulates itself emulating DDD.

Anyone who really knows either x86 assembly or machine langage or
C can see that the machine address 217f is unreachachable only if
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