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From: Bart <bc@freeuk.com>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c
Subject: Re: Top 10 most common hard skills listed on resumes...
Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2024 12:31:10 +0100
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On 09/09/2024 02:19, Waldek Hebisch wrote:
> Bart <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:
>> On 08/09/2024 19:13, Waldek Hebisch wrote:
>>> Bart <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:
>>>> On 08/09/2024 01:05, Waldek Hebisch wrote:
>>>>> Bart <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Then you no longer have a language which can be implemented in a few KB.
>>>>>> You might as well use a real with with proper data types, and not have
>>>>>> the stack exposed in the language. Forth code can be very cryptic
>>>>>> because of that.
>>>>>
>>>>> First, it is not my goal to advocate for Forth use.
>>>>
>>>> You're doing a fine job of it!
>>>>
>>>> For me it's one of those languages, like Brainf*ck, which is trivial to
>>>> implement (I've done both), but next to impossible to code in.
>>>
>>> I wonder if you really implemented Forth.  Did you implement immediate
>>> words? POSTPONE?
>>
>> I implemented a toy version, with 35 predefined words, that was enough
>> to implement Fizz Buzz. Then I looked for more examples to try and found
>> they all assumed slightly different sets of built-ins.
> 
> OK, so apparently you missed essential part.

I've looked at half a dozen hits for 'forth postpone' and I still don't 
understand what it does. Apparently something to do with compiled mode.

I wouldn't know enough to confidently implement it or use it.

Another mysterious feature with hard to understand semantics. You did 
say this was a very simple language and trivial to implement in a few KB?

My opinion of Forth has gone down a couple of notches; sorry.

(I'm not against all stack-based user-languages; I was quite impressed 
by PostScript for example. But then I didn't have to do much in-depth 
coding in it.)

>> On ZX81? I can imagine it being hard! (Someone wanted me to do something
>> on ZX80, but I turned it down. I considered it too much of a toy.)
> 
> To give more background, bare ZX81 had 1kB RAM (including video RAM).

You must mean /excluding/ surely? Otherwise there wouldn't be much left 
from 1KB!

The first Z80 machine I /made/ had 0.25KB RAM, to which I added 1KB 
(actually 1K 6-bit words; two bits unpopulated to save £6), of text-mode 
video memory.

The second version had 32KB RAM, the same 1K text-mode memory, and 8KB 
graphics-mode video memory. I was able to write my first compiler on 
that one, written using an assembler, which itself was written via a hex 
editor, and that was written in actual binary. ('Full-stack')

But both only had tape storage so tools were memory-based.