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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: Defining a correct simulating halt decider
Date: Wed, 11 Sep 2024 21:51:23 -0500
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On 9/11/2024 9:35 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 9/11/24 10:15 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 9/11/2024 6:48 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 9/11/24 7:17 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 9/11/2024 11:31 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote:
>>>>> Op 11.sep.2024 om 13:41 schreef olcott:
>>>>>> On 9/11/2024 2:35 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2024-09-11 00:21:36 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 9/10/2024 3:52 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2024-09-09 18:19:26 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 9/8/2024 9:53 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-09-07 13:57:00 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/7/2024 3:29 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-09-07 05:12:19 +0000, joes said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Am Fri, 06 Sep 2024 06:42:48 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/6/2024 6:19 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-09-05 13:24:20 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/5/2024 2:34 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-09-03 13:00:50 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/3/2024 5:25 AM, Mikko wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-09-02 16:38:03 +0000, olcott said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A halt decider is a Turing machine that computes 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the mapping from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its finite string input to the behavior that this 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finite string
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specifies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A halt decider needn't compute the full behaviour, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only whether
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that behaviour is finite or infinite.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> New slave_stack at:1038c4 Begin Local Halt Decider 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simulation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simulation Stopped
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hence  HHH(DDD)==0 is correct
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice to see that you don't disagree with what said.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unvortunately I can't agree with what you say.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH terminates,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> os DDD obviously terminates, too. No valid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD emulated by HHH never reaches it final halt state.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If that iis true it means that HHH called by DDD does 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not return and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore is not a ceicder.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The directly executed HHH is a decider.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What does simulating it change about that?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If the simulation is incorrect it may change anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR
>>>>>>>>>>>> PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR
>>>>>>>>>>>> PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR
>>>>>>>>>>>> PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR
>>>>>>>>>>>> PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> However, a correct simultation faithfully imitates the original
>>>>>>>>>>> behaviour.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _DDD()
>>>>>>>>>> [00002172] 55         push ebp      ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec       mov ebp,esp   ; housekeeping
>>>>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD
>>>>>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD)
>>>>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404     add esp,+04
>>>>>>>>>> [00002182] 5d         pop ebp
>>>>>>>>>> [00002183] c3         ret
>>>>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A correct emulation obeys the x86 machine code even
>>>>>>>>>> if this machine code catches the machine on fire.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It is impossible for an emulation of DDD by HHH to
>>>>>>>>>> reach machine address 00002183 AND YOU KNOW IT!!!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A correct emulation of DDD does reach the machine address 
>>>>>>>>> 0000217f and
>>>>>>>>> a little later 00002183.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *That is counter-factual and you cannot possibly show otherwise*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A halt decider is required to predict about the actual execution,
>>>>>>> not a couterfactual assumption.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> False assumption.
>>>>>> A halt decider must compute the mapping that its input
>>>>>> finite string specifies.
>>>>>
>>>>> And the input, a finite string that describes a program based on 
>>>>> the aborting HHH, describes a halting program, as proven by the 
>>>>> direct execution, by the unmodified world class simulator and even 
>>>>> by HHH1. The semantics of the x86 language allows only one 
>>>>> behaviour for the finite string. Any program claiming another 
>>>>> behaviour violates the semantics of the x86 language,
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is ridiculously stupid to assume that the fact
>>>>>> that DDD calls its own emulator does not change
>>>>>> its behavior relative to not calling its own emulator.
>>>>>
>>>>> It ridiculous to assume that the semantics of the x86 language 
>>>>> allows another behaviour for the finite string.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Why do you have a religious conviction to this stupid
>>>>> mistake?
>>>>
>>>> Once we understand we can make a machine that detects
>>>> lies in real time on the basis of knowing truth we will
>>>> know that we didn't have to die from climate change or
>>>> allow the rise of the fourth Reich.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Are you sure we can do that?
>>>
>>> The problem seems to be that you are ASSUMING it.
>>>
>>
>> The key is (as I have been saying for a long time)
>> To anchor the accurate model of the actual world in axioms.
> 
> And how do you know your axiom about the actual world are correct? 
> Things about what we have defined are one thing. (like defining a foot 
> to be 12 inches). But anything that is based on observation inherently 
> has a degree of error, and thus we can't actually KNOW if our 
> conclusions are true.
> 
>>
>> *AS FREAKING DETAILED BELOW*
>> Getting from Generative AI to Trustworthy AI:
>> What LLMs might learn from Cyc
>> https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/2308/2308.04445.pdf
> 
> Which absolutely can't tell if something about an empirical statement is 
> actually correct, as it is a pure analytic system.
> 
> Your problem, again, is that you just don't understand what you are 
> reading, or talking about, because you have literally decided not to 
> study the core of logic to know how it works, and thus are speaking out 
> of pure ignorance.
> 
>>
>> *Some of the most brilliant minds in AI for 40 years*
>> Doug Lenat Gary Marcus July 31, 2023
>>
>>
> 
> 

When you change the tag on my post then the
post becomes one that I never look at.

-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer