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Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com> Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: Defining a correct simulating halt decider Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 09:31:25 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 196 Message-ID: <vc1ibt$tcfb$2@dont-email.me> References: <vb4plc$2tqeg$1@dont-email.me> <vb6o5t$3a95s$1@dont-email.me> <vb71a3$3b4ub$4@dont-email.me> <vbbmuc$8nbb$1@dont-email.me> <vbcbe4$bdtb$3@dont-email.me> <vbeoge$q2ph$1@dont-email.me> <vbeprp$punj$7@dont-email.me> <c600a691fab10473128eed2a1fad2a429ad4733f@i2pn2.org> <vbh2sp$19ov0$1@dont-email.me> <vbhm3c$1c7u5$12@dont-email.me> <vbkdph$1v80k$1@dont-email.me> <vbne7e$2g6vo$6@dont-email.me> <vbp1d7$2sg7q$1@dont-email.me> <vbqnqi$381t6$1@dont-email.me> <vbrh87$3fttk$1@dont-email.me> <vbrvln$3im2p$2@dont-email.me> <vbu6oa$59vd$1@dont-email.me> <vbuhsp$7g4h$1@dont-email.me> <vc1169$ptds$1@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 16:31:26 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="d235ae0db3579965e32965ac043532df"; logging-data="963051"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+poilB1SDAWlYAmxHdjIxg" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:S01w9tanZViUAzfMfApblU+jFyw= Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <vc1169$ptds$1@dont-email.me> Bytes: 9756 On 9/13/2024 4:38 AM, Fred. Zwarts wrote: > Op 12.sep.2024 om 13:04 schreef olcott: >> On 9/12/2024 2:54 AM, Mikko wrote: >>> On 2024-09-11 11:41:42 +0000, olcott said: >>> >>>> On 9/11/2024 2:35 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>> On 2024-09-11 00:21:36 +0000, olcott said: >>>>> >>>>>> On 9/10/2024 3:52 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>> On 2024-09-09 18:19:26 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 9/8/2024 9:53 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 2024-09-07 13:57:00 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 9/7/2024 3:29 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-09-07 05:12:19 +0000, joes said: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Am Fri, 06 Sep 2024 06:42:48 -0500 schrieb olcott: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/6/2024 6:19 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-09-05 13:24:20 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/5/2024 2:34 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-09-03 13:00:50 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/3/2024 5:25 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-09-02 16:38:03 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A halt decider is a Turing machine that computes the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mapping from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its finite string input to the behavior that this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finite string >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specifies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A halt decider needn't compute the full behaviour, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> only whether >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that behaviour is finite or infinite. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> New slave_stack at:1038c4 Begin Local Halt Decider >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simulation >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simulation Stopped >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hence HHH(DDD)==0 is correct >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice to see that you don't disagree with what said. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unvortunately I can't agree with what you say. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH terminates, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> os DDD obviously terminates, too. No valid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DDD emulated by HHH never reaches it final halt state. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If that iis true it means that HHH called by DDD does not >>>>>>>>>>>>>> return and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore is not a ceicder. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The directly executed HHH is a decider. >>>>>>>>>>>> What does simulating it change about that? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> If the simulation is incorrect it may change anything. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR >>>>>>>>>> PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR >>>>>>>>>> PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR >>>>>>>>>> PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR >>>>>>>>>> PATHOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS CHANGE BEHAVIOR >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> However, a correct simultation faithfully imitates the original >>>>>>>>> behaviour. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _DDD() >>>>>>>> [00002172] 55 push ebp ; housekeeping >>>>>>>> [00002173] 8bec mov ebp,esp ; housekeeping >>>>>>>> [00002175] 6872210000 push 00002172 ; push DDD >>>>>>>> [0000217a] e853f4ffff call 000015d2 ; call HHH(DDD) >>>>>>>> [0000217f] 83c404 add esp,+04 >>>>>>>> [00002182] 5d pop ebp >>>>>>>> [00002183] c3 ret >>>>>>>> Size in bytes:(0018) [00002183] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A correct emulation obeys the x86 machine code even >>>>>>>> if this machine code catches the machine on fire. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is impossible for an emulation of DDD by HHH to >>>>>>>> reach machine address 00002183 AND YOU KNOW IT!!! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A correct emulation of DDD does reach the machine address >>>>>>> 0000217f and >>>>>>> a little later 00002183. >>>>>> >>>>>> *That is counter-factual and you cannot possibly show otherwise* >>>>> >>>>> A halt decider is required to predict about the actual execution, >>>>> not a couterfactual assumption. >>>> >>>> False assumption. >>> >>> It is not an assumption. >>> >>> "In computability theory, the halting problem is the problem of >>> determining, from a description of an arbitrary computer program >>> and an input, whether the program will finish running, or continue >>> to run forever." -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem >>> >>> That definition obviously contains what I said above. >>> >> >> It is ridiculously stupid to simply ignore the verified >> fact that DDD calls HHH(DDD) in recursive emulation and >> DDD DOES NOT call HHH1(DDD) in recursive emulation. >> > > That fact is not ignored. But there are similarities and differences > between these two cases. The similarities are that there are recursion, > but neither in the first case, nor in the second case there are > *infinite* recursions. You can't even get the most basic facts correctly. There is no recursion what-so-ever between HHH1 and DDD. _DDD() [00002177] 55 push ebp [00002178] 8bec mov ebp,esp [0000217a] 6877210000 push 00002177 [0000217f] e853f4ffff call 000015d7 [00002184] 83c404 add esp,+04 [00002187] 5d pop ebp [00002188] c3 ret Size in bytes:(0018) [00002188] _main() [00002197] 55 push ebp [00002198] 8bec mov ebp,esp [0000219a] 6877210000 push 00002177 [0000219f] e863f3ffff call 00001507 [000021a4] 83c404 add esp,+04 [000021a7] 33c0 xor eax,eax [000021a9] 5d pop ebp [000021aa] c3 ret Size in bytes:(0020) [000021aa] machine stack stack machine assembly address address data code language ======== ======== ======== ========= ============= [00002197][001037fb][00000000] 55 push ebp [00002198][001037fb][00000000] 8bec mov ebp,esp [0000219a][001037f7][00002177] 6877210000 push 00002177 ; push DDD [0000219f][001037f3][000021a4] e863f3ffff call 00001507 ; call HHH1 New slave_stack at:10389f Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:1138a7 [00002177][00113897][0011389b] 55 push ebp [00002178][00113897][0011389b] 8bec mov ebp,esp [0000217a][00113893][00002177] 6877210000 push 00002177 ; push DDD [0000217f][0011388f][00002184] e853f4ffff call 000015d7 ; call HHH New slave_stack at:14e2c7 Begin Local Halt Decider Simulation Execution Trace Stored at:15e2cf [00002177][0015e2bf][0015e2c3] 55 push ebp [00002178][0015e2bf][0015e2c3] 8bec mov ebp,esp [0000217a][0015e2bb][00002177] 6877210000 push 00002177 ; push DDD [0000217f][0015e2b7][00002184] e853f4ffff call 000015d7 ; call HHH New slave_stack at:198cef [00002177][001a8ce7][001a8ceb] 55 push ebp [00002178][001a8ce7][001a8ceb] 8bec mov ebp,esp [0000217a][001a8ce3][00002177] 6877210000 push 00002177 ; push DDD [0000217f][001a8cdf][00002184] e853f4ffff call 000015d7 ; call HHH Local Halt Decider: Infinite Recursion Detected Simulation Stopped [00002184][00113897][0011389b] 83c404 add esp,+04 [00002187][0011389b][000015bc] 5d pop ebp ========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========