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Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Ross Clark <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> Newsgroups: sci.lang Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IERvZXMg6YeO5YiGIGluIENoaW5lc2UgbWVhbiDporHpoqggKA==?= =?UTF-8?B?5Y+w6aKoLCBUeXBob29uKSA/?= Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2024 11:55:09 +1200 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 121 Message-ID: <vc2jd3$13hvt$1@dont-email.me> References: <vbu35n$4gjn$1@dont-email.me> <vbuiis$7o1l$1@dont-email.me> <80811cfc8d41addf8972ed0da3fc3ae8@www.novabbs.com> <vc03rj$gv82$1@dont-email.me> <vc0782$l93u$1@dont-email.me> <vc16fi$r4d2$1@dont-email.me> <vc1ko5$u0uu$1@dont-email.me> Reply-To: r.clark@auckland.ac.nz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2024 01:55:16 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="a1fa3e7c76737b9e624b11e5b65c0776"; logging-data="1165309"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/4EiqRaCick5JP8SlFNLHFRn56i5WDaSk=" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.0; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.9.1 Cancel-Lock: sha1:b2C9T9PgOGUNIAtrkhUAO2sQza8= Content-Language: en-GB In-Reply-To: <vc1ko5$u0uu$1@dont-email.me> Bytes: 6440 On 14/09/2024 3:12 a.m., HenHanna wrote: > On 9/13/2024 4:08 AM, Ross Clark wrote: >> On 13/09/2024 2:15 p.m., HenHanna wrote: >>> >>> On 9/12/2024 6:17 PM, Ross Clark wrote: >>>> On 13/09/2024 7:51 a.m., HenHanna wrote: >>>>> On Thu, 12 Sep 2024 11:16:40 +0000, Ross Clark wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 12/09/2024 6:53 p.m., HenHanna wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Does 野分 in Chinese mean 颱風 (台風, Typhoon) ? >>>>>> >>>>>> Google Translate gives a reading yē fēn for 野分, but translates >>>>>> it as >>>>>> "Nowaki". Which is very odd because "Nowaki" is not an English word. >>>>>> My small Ch-Eng dictionary does not seem to have yē fēn in it. >>>>>> 野 means something like 'wild'. 分 can mean 'separate; part; >>>>>> point' and >>>>>> various other things. Not much help if we can't find the combination. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> in Japanese, 野分き, 野分, のわき (or Nowake) means that. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Small Jp-Eng dictionary has nowaki 野分 'a wintry blast; a searing >>>>>> blast >>>>>> of late autumn'. >>>>>> So I don't think either of these is a synonym of 台風. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> 野 means something like 'wild'. 分 can mean 'separate; part; >>>>>> point' and >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> (Etym.) it is so-named because The field-grass (野の草) gets >>>>> Separated. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 日本では、古くは野の草を吹いて分けるところから、野分(のわき、のわ >>>>> け) と いい、11世紀初頭の『枕草子』『源氏物語』などにもその表現を >>>>> 見 ること が出来 る。 >>>> >>>> Possible, but could be folk etymology. >>> >>> >>> ----------- Do you have a better idea , or a hunch? >>> >> >> The use of the character 分 definitely suggests a connection to 分ける >> wakeru 'divide, separate'. But the form as given in the dictionary is >> nowaki. The writer of the above gives another form, nowake. But I >> don't know whether this is an attested variant, or a purely >> hypothetical earlier form from which nowaki might have been derived. I >> could equally well see the -waki as derived from waku 'boil, seeth, be >> in an uproar'. >> > > > ----------- it's not related to Boiling (as you can see below) No, it doesn't say that below. > > > i think .... Nowaki is the older reading than Nowake > > in the last 100 years, Nowake is more common That might support my alternative etymology. But who is "I" here? > > https://dictionary.sanseido-publ.co.jp/column/kisetsu03 > > 季節のことば > の わき 【野分】 > 筆者: 三省堂編修所 2007年9月3日 > > > どういう意味? > > 「二百十日」(バックナンバー8/31)でも書きましたが、『大辞林 第三版』に > は「〔野の草を吹き分ける風、の意〕①二百十日、二百二十日前後に吹く暴風。 > 台風。あるいはその余波の風。また、秋から初冬にかけて吹く強い風。のわけ。 > のわきのかぜ。[季語]秋。《吹飛ばす石は浅間の ─ かな / 芭蕉 》」とあります。 > > もう少し詳しく… > > 『全訳読解古語辞典 第三版』では、語釈のあとに「読解のために」というコラ > ムがあります。そこには「中古の作品では、野分の強風ぶりとともに、その風情 > も語られている。野分の風は、肌寒さや心細さを感じさせ、人恋しくさせるもの > であった」として、「源氏物語」や「和泉式部日記」の例が挙がっています。 > > いつごろに適したことば? ----------- 『大辞林』にあるように、二百十日 > (9月1日ごろ)や二百二十日(9月11日ごろ)のころ、台風が多いころに使われ > ます。 > > > 時候のあいさつに使うなら… 「野分の候」「野分の砌(みぎり)」など > > > ちなみに… > > 『全訳読解古語辞典』によると「野分」とは「秋に吹く暴風」と解説したうえ > で、「[関連語]類義語に「嵐(あらし)」があり、特に季節を限定しない暴風 > の意」とあります。 > 現代では、秋に吹く暴風といったら「台風」と言うのが一般的でしょう。時候の > あいさつで使う場合は、同じように「台風の候」という書き方もあるようです。 > 少し落ち着いたころには「台風一過 秋晴れもすがすがしく」というふうに書き > 出しに使うのもいいでしょう。 > OK, let's go back and answer your original question: 野分 doesn't seem to mean anything in Chinese. Nowaki (or perhaps nowake) is a Japanese word. Its etymology is unclear. It refers to a strong, cold wind. It may (at least sometimes) be used to refer to a typhoon. But it is not a synonym of taifū.