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From: Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.unix.shell,comp.unix.programmer,comp.lang.misc
Subject: Re: Python (was Re: I did not inhale)
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2024 09:59:46 +0200
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On 29.08.2024 21:36, David Brown wrote:
> On 29/08/2024 18:44, Janis Papanagnou wrote:
>> On 29.08.2024 14:30, David Brown wrote:
>>> On 29/08/2024 09:28, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> [...]
>>>
>>> Then don't use vim - use an editor that suits your needs.
>> [...]
> 
>> But what makes you think that his needs are not covered by Vim?
> 
> You seem to have missed the point - sorry if I was not clear.
> 
> He complained that he didn't want to learn complicated macros in Vim
> just to be able to indent or un-indent lines of code.  The solution is
> obvious - he should use an editor other than Vim.

This is not what I'd call a solution. I'd call it elusion; and in both
senses - if he didn't use his editor for that space-indenting because
he doesn't know how to do it he could look that up, but it is not any
issue to do that, only more laborious than indenting brace structures,
and the suggestion to switch to another tool is also elusive because
it doesn't address the issue (he would still have to learn how to do
it in any other tool). - But that was not the point.

> 
> He could, of course, learn how to use Vim.  It's a perfectly good editor
> with a lot of features.  [...]

The point was about language design and (well known) problems with a
design that uses white-space for semantical purposes. That the brace
structures can usually be edited in better, simpler ways (beyond also
providing safety etc. using a more sophisticated designed language).

> 
> There are more than enough decent editors to choose from, that cover the
> basic needs of programmers.  Some people use one editor for everything,
> others use a range for different purposes - whatever suits you.  But it
> is pretty absurd to complain that it is difficult to indent code just
> because you (i.e., Muttley) think it is hard to do in one particular
> editor.

As said; it was about "the language was designed properly"[Muttley].
And saying that switching the editor would solve something here is
just missing the point.

You can (also in Vim) write macros, as you correctly imply, or do
all the things that you can do with "other tools" (but only equally
laborious as in these other tools) as I already said. You can also
(for that specific IMO mis-designed language) enable "folding" (by
spaces) in Vim to not have to write macros (and not littering the
standard editor environment) that makes it comparably simply to do
the indentation more comfortably with less keystrokes. But nothing
beats the editing of parenthesized structures. (And doesn't change
any language mis-design.) YMMV.

Janis