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From: Cursitor Doom <cd999666@notformail.com>
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Subject: Re: Electrostatic actuators to move robots legs...
Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2024 13:17:45 -0000 (UTC)
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On Sat, 14 Sep 2024 05:55:41 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:

> On a sunny day (Fri, 13 Sep 2024 20:40:55 +0200) it happened Jeroen
> Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <vc20pt$10e68$1@dont-email.me>:
> 
>>On 9/13/24 13:38, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>> On a sunny day (Fri, 13 Sep 2024 20:55:09 +1000) it happened Chris
>>> Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com> wrote in
>>> <jSUEO.167440$QvZa.5887@fx08.ams4>:
>>> 
>>>> On 13/09/2024 2:49 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>> On a sunny day (Thu, 12 Sep 2024 14:43:02 +0200) it happened Jeroen
>>>>> Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in
>>>>> <vbuneq$8hap$1@dont-email.me>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9/12/24 12:34, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/09/2024 10:45, Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 12 Sep 2024 05:00:38 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Artificial muscles propel a robotic leg to walk and jump:
>>>>>>>>>     https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/
2024/09/240909113111.htm
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> quote:
>>>>>>>>>     "
>>>>>>>>>     The actuators are oil-filled plastic bags, similar to those
>>>>>>>>>     used to make ice cubes.
>>>>>>>>>     About half of each bag is coated on either side with a
>>>>>>>>>     black electrode made of a conductive material.
>>>>>>>>>     Buchner explains that "as soon as we apply a voltage to the
>>>>>>>>> electrodes,
>>>>>>>>>     they are attracted to each other due to static electricity.
>>>>>>>>>     ...
>>>>>>>>>     "
>>>>>>>>> And press the fluid out....
>>>>>>>>> So electrostatic actuators!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How does that not violate thermodynamics? You seem to be getting
>>>>>>>> useful power from zero energy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How do little pieces of paper defy gravity when you put a charged
>>>>>>> comb near them? Isn't the energy supplied by rubbing the comb
>>>>>>> against some material to give it the charge to attract the paper?
>>>>>>> Where does the voltage come from which is applied to the bag
>>>>>>> electrodes?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Didn't we discuss something like this not too long ago, or was it
>>>>>>> in another NG?
>>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatic_motor>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> That was right here in s.e.d in July. And no, thermodynamics, or
>>>>>> rather conservation of energy is not violated. It never is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think that they can get useful amounts of work out of these
>>>>>> things. The Science Daily article is useless, as always, and I did
>>>>>> not bother to read the paper.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jeroen Belleman
>>>>>
>>>>> At least they made something that works,
>>>>> unlike the trillions spend at CERN that never do anything for
>>>>> anybody.
>>>>> I would cancel all funding to CERN if they did not come up with
>>>>> something revolutionary and practical useful in a year.
>>>>> He who does not want to see is practically blind.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Kicad and web browsers are quite useful, even if the physics is of no
>>>> interest to you.
>>> 
>>> html was invented long ago by somebody from CERN
>>>   https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee
>>> quote in Dutch:
>>>   " Timothy John (Tim) Berners-Lee (Londen, 8 juni 1955) is samen met
>>>   zijn toenmalig manager, de Belg Robert Cailliau,
>>>   de bedenker en grondlegger van de technologie en het protocol, die
>>>   het world wide web of wereldwijde web, afgekort tot www,
>>>   mogelijk maakten. Hieraan werkte hij toen hij
>>>   consultant-software-engineer in dienst bij het CERN in Zwitserland
>>>   was,
>>>   van juni tot en met december 1990"
>>> 
>>> Timothy John (Tim) Berners-Lee  only worked at CERN from june to
>>> december 1990 So basicaly nothing to do with CERN or elementary
>>> particles etc.
>>> There is old html server code I had somewhere from a CERN website that
>>> I once used.
>>> Modern browsers are hopelessly bloated with other stuff, mostly for
>>> enabling more advertizing :-)
>>> 
>>> Without CERN he likely would have invented it anyways, maybe earlier
>>> :-)
>>> 
>>> 
>>I think Berners-Lee spent more time at CERN than that. He was a software
>>engineer involved in data acquisition software for physics experiments.
>>We were in the same department. I've been in meetings with him present.
>>This was in the 1980s. We were young. The subject at the time was
>>FastBus software libraries. FastBus was used in the LEP experiments, but
>>it was expensive and cumbersome and never lived up to expectations. It
>>died with the end of LEP.
> Here is the English wikipedia site, more info, says the same thing about
> hiistime at CERN though
>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee
> You can correct stuff on wikipedia if you want.
> 
> 
>>The World Wide Web was just one of his pet projects that grew out of
>>proportion. Its original aim was to make documentation more easily
>>accessible. At the time, if you weren't in meetings, on distribution
>>lists, or if you didn't know the right people, it was very hard to find
>>information.
>>
>>CERN was fertile ground for such a development. The infrastructure was
>>there. There were computers everywhere. There were several kinds of
>>networks to interconnect them. There was a lot of documentation, but it
>>was hard to find and hard to maintain. The web addressed all that.
>>Personally, I think it's a shame it mimicked a commonly used text
>>formatting software of that era: SGML. Oh well.
>>
>>Of course, it helps that CERN management decided to release the web
>>software into the public domain. I invite you to imagine what it would
>>have been like if Micro$soft, IBM or Apple had come up with it. You
>>wouldn't have liked it nearly as much, I'm sure, if you could even
>>afford it. In fact, Apple had something like it at the time, proprietary
>>of course. It didn't survive, because.
> 
> I dunno, I had windows 3.1 with trumpet winsock for the web...
> Those were the days Billy The Gates stated 'internet was nothing much'
> 
> Before the internet I was online via viditel here:
>  https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viditel
> I used it,
> 1200 Bd rx 75 Bd tx via the phone line.
> There were several 'goups', I followed the CP/M user group for example.
> 
> The French had Minitel:
>  https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minitel
> 
> So not so much new in html... :-)

Anyone remember JANET?