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Path: ...!2.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Mikko <mikko.levanto@iki.fi> Newsgroups: comp.theory Subject: Re: The Foundation of Linguistic truth is stipulated relations between finite strings Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2024 09:41:53 +0300 Organization: - Lines: 113 Message-ID: <vcb8bh$3crak$1@dont-email.me> References: <vb8ku7$3m85g$2@dont-email.me> <vc1910$rkci$1@dont-email.me> <vc1ioa$tcfb$3@dont-email.me> <vc3hb8$1cgbd$1@dont-email.me> <vc44vt$1ge14$1@dont-email.me> <vc662i$22r9n$1@dont-email.me> <vc74cf$2948m$1@dont-email.me> <vc8o7j$2nsv4$1@dont-email.me> <vc96eo$2qm11$1@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2024 08:41:54 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="5f858832c21fe79025b1442dcd26ba83"; logging-data="3566932"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+oamwWwCu8iBlF6Wfs7ahK" User-Agent: Unison/2.2 Cancel-Lock: sha1:XrqvcQgriJfILqVM8q77rNiMsAI= Bytes: 5891 On 2024-09-16 11:57:11 +0000, olcott said: > On 9/16/2024 2:54 AM, Mikko wrote: >> On 2024-09-15 17:09:34 +0000, olcott said: >> >>> On 9/15/2024 3:32 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>> On 2024-09-14 14:01:31 +0000, olcott said: >>>> >>>>> On 9/14/2024 3:26 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>> On 2024-09-13 14:38:02 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 9/13/2024 6:52 AM, Mikko wrote: >>>>>>>> On 2024-09-04 03:41:58 +0000, olcott said: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The Foundation of Linguistic truth is stipulated relations >>>>>>>>> between finite strings. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The only way that we know that "cats" <are> "animals" >>>>>>>>> (in English) is the this is stipulated to be true. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *This is related to* >>>>>>>>> Truth-conditional semantics is an approach to semantics of >>>>>>>>> natural language that sees meaning (or at least the meaning >>>>>>>>> of assertions) as being the same as, or reducible to, their >>>>>>>>> truth conditions. This approach to semantics is principally >>>>>>>>> associated with Donald Davidson, and attempts to carry out >>>>>>>>> for the semantics of natural language what Tarski's semantic >>>>>>>>> theory of truth achieves for the semantics of logic. >>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth-conditional_semantics >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Yet equally applies to formal languages* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> No, it does not. Formal languages are designed for many different >>>>>>>> purposes. Whether they have any semantics and the nature of the >>>>>>>> semantics of those that have is determined by the purpose of the >>>>>>>> language. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Formal languages are essentially nothing more than >>>>>>> relations between finite strings. >>>>>> >>>>>> Basically a formal language is just a set of strings, usually defined >>>>>> so that it is easy to determine about each string whether it belongs >>>>>> to that subset. Relations of strings to other strings or anything else >>>>>> are defined when useful for the purpose of the language. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Yes. >>>>> >>>>>>> Thus, given T, an elementary theorem is an elementary >>>>>>> statement which is true. >>>>>> >>>>>> That requires more than just a language. Being an elementary theorem means >>>>>> that a subset of the language is defined as a set of the elementary theorems >>>>> >>>>> a subset of the finite strings are stipulated to be elementary theorems. >>>>> >>>>>> or postulates, usually so that it easy to determine whether a string is a >>>>>> member of that set, often simply as a list of all elementary theorems. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Yes. >>>>> >>>>>>> https://www.liarparadox.org/Haskell_Curry_45.pdf >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Some of these relations between finite strings are >>>>>>> elementary theorems thus are stipulated to be true. >>>>>> >>>>>> No, that conficts with the meanings of those words. Certain realtions >>>>>> between strings are designated as inference rules, usually defined so >>>>>> that it is easy to determine whether a given string can be inferred >>>>>> from given (usually one or two) other strings. Elementary theorems >>>>>> are strings, not relations between strings. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> One elementary theorem of English is the {Cats} <are> {Animals}. >>>> >>>> There are no elementary theorems of English >>> >>> There are billions of elementary theorems in English of >>> this form: finite_string_X <is a> finite_string_Y >>> I am stopping here at your first huge mistake. >> >> They are not elementary theorems of English. They are English expressions >> of claims that that are not language specific. >> >>> It is hard to step back and see that "cats" and "animals" >>> never had any inherent meaning. >> >> Those meanings are older that the words "cat" and "animal" and the >> word "animal" existed before there was any English language. > > Yet they did not exist back when language was the exact > same caveman grunt. Nothing is known about languages before 16 000 BC and very little about languages before 4000 BC. Words change ofer time so a word does not have well defined beginning. If you regard "cat" as a different word from "catt" 'male cat' and "catte" 'female cat' then it is a fairly new word, if the same then it is older than the English language. > There was point point in time when words came into > existence. That is not the same time for all words and also depends on what you consider a new word and what just a variant of an existing one. Even now people use sonds that are not considered words and sounds that can be regardeded, depending on one's opinion, words or non-words. -- Mikko