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From: RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: California Dairy herds positive for the dairy virus
Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2024 11:06:30 -0500
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On 9/22/2024 9:15 AM, RonO wrote:
> On 9/21/2024 9:04 AM, RonO wrote:
>> On 9/19/2024 7:52 AM, RonO wrote:
>>> On 9/18/2024 12:58 PM, RonO wrote:
>>>> On 9/18/2024 11:11 AM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
>>>>> RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On 9/17/2024 1:18 PM, x wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ok.  Sorry to have implied that about a joke.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What is going on with the flu strains with a 50% fatality rate?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is an Asian and European H5N1 strain of avian influenza that 
>>>>>> has
>>>>>> been responsible for over 800 human deaths (50% mortality of known
>>>>>> infected humans).  Infection is not a common occurrence and requires
>>>>>> contact with infected birds.  Wild bird migration brought this 
>>>>>> virus to
>>>>>> North America, but the virus that infected the Dairy cattle was a
>>>>>> recombinant with another North American avian influenza strain.  It
>>>>>> inherited the H5 and N1 antigen genes from the Asian virus, but 
>>>>>> around
>>>>>> half of it's genome comes from another influenza virus.  This is 
>>>>>> likely
>>>>>> why it doesn't have a 50% mortality when it infects humans.  So far
>>>>>> humans have only exhibited mild symptoms, but the worry is that the
>>>>>> virus will mutate to better infect humans and become more pathogenic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is that something involving low numbers of infected and statistics
>>>>>>> or is that something real about the nature of those flu strains?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As noted above the Asian H5N1 has infected fewer than 2,000 people in
>>>>>> Asia and Europe, but over 800 of them died due to the infection.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does that involve differences in antigen presentation?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Due to the recombinant half, the dairy virus is antigenically 
>>>>>> different
>>>>>> than the Asian H5N1, but initially the H5 antigen was neutralized by
>>>>>> related H5 virus that the CDC had already banked for vaccine use.  
>>>>>> One
>>>>>> thing that they are not making a big deal about is that the latest 
>>>>>> human
>>>>>> case (without known animal contact) in Missouri has a couple of amino
>>>>>> acid substitutions relative to the original dairy H5 and the 
>>>>>> Missouri H5
>>>>>> can avoid the existing H5 antibodies, and those antibodies are now 
>>>>>> 10 to
>>>>>> 100 times less effective in neutralizing an infection.  This just 
>>>>>> means
>>>>>> that they have to start working up a vaccine strain with the new H5
>>>>>> mutations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do they have symptoms similar to other flu but more severe
>>>>>>> or can they have vastly different symptom sets in comparison
>>>>>>> with other colds or flus?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most of the humans infected with the dairy virus have mild 
>>>>>> symptoms with
>>>>>> most of them having only itchy eyes.  The virus was not isolated from
>>>>>> nasal swabs so the infection had not become respiratory.  Virus 
>>>>>> has been
>>>>>> isolated from eye swabs of infected individuals.  The latest Missouri
>>>>>> example is different.  Apparently the virus was detected in samples
>>>>>> taken normally to check for respiratory infections, but the 
>>>>>> patient was
>>>>>> not exhibiting the normal respiratory symptoms.  Instead the 
>>>>>> patient had
>>>>>> "nausea, vomiting, diarrhea and weakness".  The CDC has noted that 
>>>>>> these
>>>>>> are not the normal respiratory symptoms of influenza, but they do not
>>>>>> note that these are symptoms that have been associated with the H5N1
>>>>>> Asian virus with a high human mortality.  The CDC seems to have 
>>>>>> the goal
>>>>>> of downplaying how bad things probably are.
>>>>>>
>>>>> So the common misnomer of “stomach flu” applied to norovirus would 
>>>>> actually
>>>>> apply in cases where influenza infection actually does result in 
>>>>> digestive
>>>>> symptoms?
>>>>
>>>> Yes, influenza virus can be associated with "stomach flu" symptoms, 
>>>> and as I noted the H5N1 avian influenza virus that has a high 
>>>> mortality in humans has produced these symptoms.
>>>>
>>>> https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/22401-bird-flu
>>>>
>>>> Until the Missouri case the dairy H5N1 had not been associated with 
>>>> those symptoms, but they have occurred in the high mortality cases 
>>>> of humans infected by the Asian strain of H5N1.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So if someone says “I have stomach flu” I would now reply “I sure hope
>>>>> you’re wrongly calling noro that, because actual H5 stomach flu is 
>>>>> much
>>>>> worse!”
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The Asian H5N1 has a 50% mortality in humans.  As I have noted the 
>>>> Dairy H5N1 is a recombinant and around half of it's genome comes 
>>>> from another avian influenza virus.  The Dairy H5N1 had only been 
>>>> associated with mild symptoms until the Missouri case, and the CDC 
>>>> is trying to claim that the Missouri patients symptoms were due to 
>>>> something else other than the dairy virus.  They are probably wrong 
>>>> because another person (close contact of the hospitalized patient) 
>>>> exhibited the same symptoms but was never tested.
>>>>
>>>> Ron Okimoto
>>>
>>> What should be noted on TO is that the CDC is trying to downplay how 
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