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From: RonO <rokimoto557@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: We need a new reformation
Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 17:41:09 -0500
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On 9/24/2024 9:35 AM, RonO wrote:
> In my last post about the ID perps at the Discovery Institute running a 
> bait and switch scam on the creationist rubes for over 22 years I noted 
> that the Top Six best evidences for IDiocy were all used by the 
> scientific creationists that preceded them in trying to teach Biblical 
> creationism in the public schools.  You can find all of them in the 
> Answers in Genesis (AIG) creation museum.  Even though the Big Bang has 
> been a science subject that the YEC and IDiotic creationists have tried 
> to get removed from the the public school science standards along with 
> biological evolution in several states, and they succeeded in Kansas, 
> the Big Bang is featured prominently in the AIG's planetarium exibit. 
> Like the other Top Six god-of-the-gaps denial arguments the ID perps and 
> the AIG only use them as independent bits of denial.  They never try to 
> develop any creation model out of them.  They are only used for denial 
> purposes and the rubes are supposed to forget one as they move onto the 
> others.
> 
> I went to the AIG web site to see if they were still lying to the rubes 
> about the junk, and found them calling for a new reformation.
> 
> https://answersingenesis.org/
> 
> QUOTE:
> We need a new reformation today—a reformation where God’s people, 
> particularly Christian leaders, repent of compromising God’s Word 
> (particularly in Genesis 1–11), and stand boldly on God’s infallible Word.
> END QUOTE:

The article has been removed from the AIG site.  It was between the 
"Pope Francis" article and the "Crystals & Christians" article.

Googling the quoted text only brings up an older article that had 
similar wording.

QUOTE:
The spirit of compromise sadly permeates much of the church. I submit we 
need a new reformation honoring the authority of God's Word starting 
with Genesis 1:1 before there can be real revival.
END QUOTE:

https://x.com/aigkenham/status/1663153669934657538

It was a two part X post like the current Caveman post, but it looks 
like Ham changed his mind about posting it.

Ron Okimoto

> 
> They can't deal with the fact that Biblical creationists are beginning 
> to realize that the Bible has been wrong about nature for a very long 
> time, and the AIG doesn't like the accommodations that have had to be 
> made by any religious organization led by competent and rational human 
> beings.  After the IDiotic creationist loss in Dover YEC Biblical 
> literalist Christian denominations like the Assembly of God Church have 
> been trying to convert their followers to old earth creationism.  The 
> AIG has come out against these changes and the accommodations that many 
> Christians are making for biological evolution.
> 
> The first protestant reformation also wanted the Catholic church to get 
> tougher on notions that conflicted with Biblical interpretation of 
> nature.  TO had a thread on the heliocentric heresy, and we learned that 
> when Bruno was burned at the stake his heliocentric heresy was only a 
> lesser heresy at that time and was not punishable by death.  The Church 
> fathers were all geocentrists, but Saint Augustine had cautioned 
> Christians that they should not use the Bible to deny what we could 
> figure out about nature for ourselves.  Augustine went unheeded and 
> heliocentrism became a heresy.  After Bruno was burned at the stake, 
> being also found guilty of other charges, the protestant reformers 
> wanted the Catholic church to stop allowing the heliocentric heresy to 
> fester, and it was elevated to being a heresy punishable by death. 
> Galileo faced the death penalty. Heliocentrism is still a heresy, but it 
> was demoted to being a lesser heresy again in the 19th century.  Newton 
> was born the year Galileo died under house arrest (1642) and geocentrism 
> hasn't been a serious notion since Newton.  Kepler was likely the last 
> one to try to support the existence of the firmament with his crystal 
> spheres, but he had to give that up when he figured out elliptical orbits.
> 
> My guess is that the AIG does not want heliocentrism to be elevated to a 
> capital heresy again because there are not very many Christians that 
> continue to believe in geocentrism or the standard Biblical cosmology. 
> The Hebrew acquired their cosmology from their neighbors that had been 
> civilized for a longer period of time.  The earth was flat with a 
> firmament above holding the sun, moon, planets, and stars.  The earth 
> was the center of the universe and God would open the firmament every 
> once in a while to let the water fall to the earth as rain.  The church 
> fathers were likely not flat earthers, and Augustine was likely fighting 
> flat earth literalists when he made his recommendation to not use the 
> Bible as a source for understanding nature.  The Greeks had estimated 
> the circumference of the earth a couple of centuries before Christ was 
> born, and the church fathers were likely all geocentrists, and were 
> likely not flat earthers.
> 
> At the time that the Christian Church was forming the geocentric 
> cosmology excluded the flat earth of the Bible, so the early church had 
> already relegated the flat earth claims in the Bible as symbolic or 
> metaphorical.  They already understood that the Bible could not be taken 
> literally.  The reason for Saint Augustine's admonishment about denial 
> of nature was not mentioned by Augustine, but it was likely flat-earth 
> Christians that had not yet accepted the Greek cosmology.  Even though 
> the Greeks had estimated the circumference of the earth by physcial 
> geometric measurement a couple of centuries before Christ was born, 
> there were early Christian flat earthers.
> 
> My guess is that Ham isn't a geocentrist nor flat earther, but he is 
> still calling for his reformation.  Ham's reformation is needed because 
> most of the ID perps are old earth creationists.  When I started calling 
> the Discovery Institute's intelligent design scam artists "ID perps" 
> just before Dover hit the fan.  I noted that most of their victims in 
> the bait and switch scam that they had been running for around 2 years 
> likely wanted to tar and feather the ID perp scam artists (most of them 
> had dropped the issue instead of bend over for the switch scam).  I also 
> noted that if they ever were successful in recreating their imagined 
> Christian theocracy that they were likely to be the first up against the 
> wall after the establishment of the new order.  The AIG's call for a 
> reformation supports that notion.  When Dembski was forced to apologize 
> to his students in order to keep his job, after he told them that the 
> earth was likely older than indicated in the Bible and that the flood 
> may have been local, that was a warning that the ID perps would be the 
> first up against the wall in any theocracy that they might have been 
> able to create.  Most of their support has always been YEC, but most of 
> the ID perps were OEC and they were all stupid enough to think that they 
> could ride that tiger.  We are all lucky that the ID perps were all too 
> incompetent and dishonest to have succeeded with the mission that they 
> signed up for.
> 
> Ron Okimoto
>