Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no>
Newsgroups: comp.arch
Subject: Re: Is Intel exceptionally unsuccessful as an architecture designer?
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2024 10:12:31 +0200
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <vd0glf$3jvuc$1@dont-email.me>
References: <memo.20240913205156.19028s@jgd.cix.co.uk>
 <vcd3ds$3o6ae$2@dont-email.me>
 <2935676af968e40e7cad204d40cafdcf@www.novabbs.org>
 <2024Sep18.074007@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <vcds4i$3vato$1@dont-email.me>
 <2024Sep18.220953@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> <vcfopr$8glq$3@dont-email.me>
 <ll232oFs6asU1@mid.individual.net> <vcgo74$gkr1$3@dont-email.me>
 <ll2n1hFu4lmU1@mid.individual.net> <vchu2q$mfu5$1@dont-email.me>
 <vchu67$mgk1$1@dont-email.me> <vcieqn$p8fv$1@dont-email.me>
 <AAfHO.23138$5837.19479@fx35.iad> <86jzf4829c.fsf@linuxsc.com>
 <vcpojl$2ads5$1@dont-email.me> <vct3av$2tic0$17@dont-email.me>
 <vctb0s$32gol$1@dont-email.me> <vctbo2$32cko$3@dont-email.me>
 <vcv711$3b4hf$1@dont-email.me>
 <80ac0be837ac857106de25ea9b82a817@www.novabbs.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2024 10:12:31 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="a2acf96c5a9971767ae2525d632c7259";
	logging-data="3801036"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+YCkxFrpsJYHsiDvBZ2d6dMZTADJ2UWek="
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101
 Thunderbird/102.11.0
Cancel-Lock: sha1:emgHr/p39rHVyskyl4qQij/o+QU=
Content-Language: en-GB
In-Reply-To: <80ac0be837ac857106de25ea9b82a817@www.novabbs.org>

On 24/09/2024 22:33, MitchAlsup1 wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Sep 2024 20:21:53 +0000, Brett wrote:
> 
>>
>> I am on the black holes don’t exist list, at smaller than at the center
>> of a galaxy.
>>
>> You hear physicists talk of microscopic black holes, but the force that
>> keeps atoms apart is so much more powerful than gravity that such talk
>> is just fools playing with math they don’t understand.
> 
> Neutron stars are are collapsed forms of matter where gravity is
> stronger
> than the electro-magnetic fields holding the electrons away from each
> other and the protons.
> 
> It is possible that there is some kind of (as yet non-understood) force
> that prevent a black holes complete collapse into a point--erasing all
> visible aspects other than mass, charge, and spin.
> 
> It is just that our understanding of physics does not include such a
> force.
> 

There are quite a lot of other forces and effects fighting against the 
collapse.  These are often viewed as "pressure".  Electron pressure 
prevents neutron stars from forming until you have at least 1.4 solar 
masses.  Beyond that, there is the pressure from the strong force 
holding neutrons together, effects from the uncertainty principle, the 
Pauli exclusion principle, and various quark effects.

These are not beyond our current understanding, but some of these 
degenerate matter states have not been observed.  We have /some/ data 
about the inside of neutron stars, but it is limited.  AFAIK we have not 
seen anything that is definitely more collapsed than a neutron star, but 
definitely not a black hole - quark stars, strange stars, and the like 
are hypothetical for now.

But it is entirely plausible that there are other limits to compression 
that we don't as yet know about and that would prevent a singularity 
even for huge masses.

However, AFAIK (and my knowledge here is amateur) it does not make an 
observable difference if there is such a force or pressure preventing 
singularities.  Once you have reached the point where the object is 
smaller than its Schwarzchild radius (ignoring angular momentum for 
simplicity) then no information can escape from the object to the 
outside universe.  From outside the event horizon, you see the mass, 
charge and angular momentum - nothing else, regardless of what things 
are like inside the event horizon.

> Finally note: An electron can be modeled in QCD as if it were a black
> hole with the mass, charge, and spin of an electron. ...