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From: The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: GNOME/Freedesktop/redhat incompetent or malicious influence
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2024 14:39:16 +0100
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On 15/10/2024 13:06, Pancho wrote:
> On 10/15/24 09:09, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 18:39:25 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>>>  I don't
>>>> want Putin running the USA like it was Chechnya.
>>>
>>> Better Putin than Soros.
>>>
>>
>> I have compared them both scientifically, and it is actualyl proven 
>> that Soros society would be a nicer one, than Putins. If you step away 
>> from the main cities in russia, the people in the country side live 
>> under close to medieval living conditions that would make all 
>> americans revolt.
>>
> 
> That is an unfair comparison. Putin inherited a country on the brink of 
> collapse. He stabilised it and produced reasonable growth. Many of his 
> problems have been caused by external pressures, which do not exist for 
> the US. Not least of which is USA enforced sanctions.
> 
> Experience in Africa show us that trying to impose liberal democracy on 
> countries, without the social framework to handle it, can be 
> catastrophic. Yes, Putin is a tyrant, but I suspect, currently, Russia 
> needs a tyrant.
> 
>> That's what you get with a kleptocracy and an authoritarian system 
>> built to exploit the people and enrich its leaders.
> 
> You'll have to spell out if you are talking about the USA or Russia. 

Russia.
The USA is more an oligarchy.

The sad thing about Russia is that its never been anything else, and its 
people would not know what to do if it wasnt.
It has always been a collection of utterly poor serfs, a few 
intellectual and affluent middle class and an oppressive centralised 
power structure on top.

At the breakdown of communism, party Apparatchiks realised that if they 
could grab control of the greatest source of income - oil and gas - they 
would be sitting on an income stream large enough to pay for the FSB to 
stop anyone stopping them. They didnt need an educated middle class to 
do this beyond a bit of service to the kleptocracy and keeping the oil 
and gash gushing, and the absolutely  didn't need the peasants.
And they didn't need to pay much attention to manufacturing when they 
could afford to import everything.

And so that being what was possible, that was what they did Russia is a 
typical third world oil country, with all the power and money in very 
few hands and the population oppressed in classical Marxist terms by 
capitalists. Except they never put any capital up. They stole it.

That's what we call them a kleptocracy, The Russian state is comprised 
of thieves, and its run as a Mafia.


> Today I was reading about Cryptocurrency billionaires trying to 
> manipulate the US democratic process to remove a senator seeking to 
> regulate them.
> 
> FWIW, I don't understand why Soros is presented as an arch villain.
> 
Well really because he uses his power to do what's good for Soros, and 
in the process has done damage elsewhere.

I don't like that, but I like Putin a whole lot less. The USA hasn't 
ever really been run by true dictators and fascists so you don't have 
the direct experience of them. South America has of course a long 
tradition of such. Cf Venezuela and Chavez.


Here in Europe we have always had them and the democracy we gifted you 
was our ultimate prophylactic against  them. In the beginning they were 
Feudal overlords, then they were arrogant kings, then they became power 
mad dictators like 
Napoleon...Franco...Mussolini...Hitler...Stalin...Ceaușescu...and today 
they are the bureaucrats of the FSB in Russia and the EU in Western 
Europe, except that Western Europe has vestiges of democracy left.


Rich and powerful men are rich and powerful because it is important to 
them and thats why they get to be rich and powerful, and then they get 
worried someone will steal it and the next thing is they are playing 
with politics.  And using a bit of the riches to but all the 
politicians, They don't care which party wins as long as enough of its 
top puppets are their puppets in their pockets.

In the case of Russia your summary of and comparison with African 
nations is indeed cogent. There is no point in trying to 'regime change' 
Russia because  the next regime will be the same as this one.

What is pragmatic is to destroy them militarily and as a world power, 
and let the Russians themselves decide what to do next.

As we have done with North Korea.  Its a pimple we need not burst, 
because ultimately its an entirely self contained shithole that doesn't 
impact anywhere else and it serves as an example of what happens when 
you let leaders become  divine beings and give them godlike powers.

Where you make a mistake is to buy into the crap about any of Russia 
problems being the USAs fault, except that in 1944 you should have 
listened to Churchill and let the Russians get slaughtered by Germany 
before defeating Germany.

No Eastern Bloc. No Cold War.

No one has exerted any pressure on Russia whatsoever. No one wants 
Russia, only its oil and gas. And the deal was that Russia got paid 
handsomely for those with the West turning a blind eye as to how the 
kleptocrats murdered their own citizens.

But Russia has always interfered in the West. And pushed the limits. And 
never played nice. And Putin invaded Ukraine on a pretext.

He crossed the red line.  And unlike his red line, ours are a bit more 
actively enforced.



-- 
“People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them, 
and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them. 
Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s 
agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of 
one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”

Paul Krugman