Path: ...!npeer.as286.net!npeer-ng0.as286.net!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: A state transition diagram proves ... GOOD PROGRESS
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2024 12:11:17 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 107
Message-ID: <veu4rl$3ct1e$1@dont-email.me>
References: <ves6p1$2uoln$1@dont-email.me>
 <3232d8a0cc7b5d4bba46321bf682c94573bf1b7c@i2pn2.org>
 <vesemu$2v7sh$1@dont-email.me>
 <a9fb95eb0ed914d0d9775448c005111eb43f2c5b@i2pn2.org>
 <veslpf$34ogr$1@dont-email.me>
 <647fe917c6bc0cfc78083ccf927fe280acdf2f9d@i2pn2.org>
 <vetq7u$3b8r2$1@dont-email.me>
 <d8006439ae02f55ba148e6be1f8c4787905a999f@i2pn2.org>
 <veu30q$3cqfo$1@dont-email.me>
 <0280e32ff3acd1fff59f9637f14bf309150878b4@i2pn2.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2024 19:11:18 +0200 (CEST)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="038c6a2fd0ca42e5af4fa5df3c3c0f47";
	logging-data="3568686"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19ORJgkOn+Cs4m5QgcLy8v/"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:Bv9GbJPWWhv0VM/tDLo4luCzi4w=
X-Antivirus: Norton (VPS 241018-6, 10/18/2024), Outbound message
In-Reply-To: <0280e32ff3acd1fff59f9637f14bf309150878b4@i2pn2.org>
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
Content-Language: en-US
Bytes: 6560

On 10/18/2024 12:00 PM, joes wrote:
> Am Fri, 18 Oct 2024 11:39:52 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>> On 10/18/2024 9:41 AM, joes wrote:
>>> Am Fri, 18 Oct 2024 09:10:04 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>> On 10/18/2024 6:17 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 10/17/24 11:47 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/17/2024 10:27 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/17/24 9:47 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 10/17/2024 8:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 10/17/24 7:31 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>>>> When DDD is correctly emulated by HHH according to the semantics
>>>>>>>>>> of the x86 language DDD cannot possibly reach its own machine
>>>>>>>>>> address [00002183] no matter what HHH does.
>>>>>>>>>> +-->[00002172]-->[00002173]-->[00002175]-->[0000217a]--+
>>>
>>>>>>>>> Except that 0000217a doesn't go to 00002172, but to 000015d2
>>>
>>>>> The Emulating HHH sees those addresses at its begining and then never
>>>>> again.
>>>>> Then the HHH that it is emulating will see those addresses, but not
>>>>> the outer one that is doing that emulation of HHH.
>>>>> And so on.
>>>>> Which HHH do you think EVER gets back to 00002172?
>>>>> What instruction do you think that it emulates that would tell it to
>>>>> do so?
>>>>> At best the trace is:
>>>>> 00002172 00002173 00002175 0000217a conditional emulation of 00002172
>>>>> conditional emulation of 00002173 conditional emulation of 00002175
>>>>> conditional emulation of 0000217a CE of CE of 00002172 ...
>>>> OK great this is finally good progress.
>>> The more interesting part is HHH simulating itself, specifically the
>>> if(Root) check on line 502.
>> That has nothing to do with any aspect of the emulation until HHH has
>> correctly emulated itself emulating DDD.

> What? That is part of HHH, not DDD.
> 

Until if (root) is true it has no effect on DDD emulated by HHH.

>>>>> and if HHH decides to abort its emulation, it also should know that
>>>>> every level of condition emulation it say will also do the same
>>>>> thing,
>>>> If I understand his words correctly Mike has already disagreed with
>>>> this.
>>> He hasn't.
> 
>>>> Message-ID: <rLmcnQQ3-N_tvH_4nZ2dnZfqnPGdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>
>>>> On 3/1/2024 12:41 PM, Mike Terry wrote:
>>>>    > Obviously a simulator has access to the internal state (tape
>>>>    > contents etc.) of the simulated machine. No problem there.
>>>> This seems to indicate that the Turing machine UTM version of HHH can
>>>> somehow see each of the state transitions of the DDD resulting from
>>>> emulating its own Turing machine description emulating DDD.
>>> Of course. It needs to, in order to simulate it. Strictly speaking it
>>> has no idea of its simulation of a simulation two levels down, only of
>>> the immediate simulation; the rest is just part of whatever program the
>>> simulated simulator is simulating, which happens to be itself.
>>   From the concrete execution trace of DDD emulated by HHH
>> according to the semantics of the x86 language people with sufficient
>> technical competence can see that the halt status criteria that
>> professor Sipser agreed to has been met.
> 
>>       If emulating termination analyzer HHH emulates its input DDD
>>       until HHH determines that
>>       its emulated DDD would never stop running unless aborted ...

> But it would.
> 

On 10/14/2022 7:44 PM, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
 > I don't think that is the shell game.  PO really /has/ an H
 > (it's trivial to do for this one case) that correctly determines
 > that P(P) *would* never stop running *unless* aborted.
....
 > But H determines (correctly) that D would not halt if it
 > were not halted.  That much is a truism.


>>>> *Joes can't seem to understand this*
>>>> Only the outer-most HHH meets its abort criteria first, thus unless it
>>>> aborts as soon as it meets this criteria none of them will ever abort.
>>> This is very simple to understand. Almost as simple as: even if only
>>> the outermost HHH didn't abort, it would still halt,
>> Yet that is based on the factually incorrect assumption that every
>> instance of HHH does not use the exact same machine code.

> Same as the outer HHH returning that the inner ones wouldn't.
> 

*Not at all and this seems over your head*
The outer one meets is termination status criteria first
The outer one meets is termination status criteria first
The outer one meets is termination status criteria first
The outer one meets is termination status criteria first
The outer one meets is termination status criteria first
The outer one meets is termination status criteria first
The outer one meets is termination status criteria first
The outer one meets is termination status criteria first

This ridiculous degree of repetition helps Richard
because he says that he has ADD.

-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer