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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Premises cannot be shown to be false without proving that they
 contradict each other
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2024 22:04:49 -0500
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On 10/21/2024 9:42 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 10/21/24 7:08 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 10/21/2024 6:05 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 10/21/24 6:48 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 10/21/2024 5:34 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 10/21/24 12:29 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/21/2024 10:17 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>> Am Mon, 21 Oct 2024 08:41:11 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>> On 10/21/2024 3:39 AM, joes wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Am Sun, 20 Oct 2024 17:36:25 -0500 schrieb olcott:
>>>>>>>>>> On 10/20/2024 4:41 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/20/24 4:23 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/20/2024 2:13 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/20/24 1:33 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Note, I DID tell that to Chat GPT, and it agrees that DDD, 
>>>>>>>>>>> when the
>>>>>>>>>>> criteria is what does DDD actually do, which is what the 
>>>>>>>>>>> question
>>>>>>>>>>> MUST be about to be about the Termination or Halting problem, 
>>>>>>>>>>> then
>>>>>>>>>>> DDD WILL HALT since HHH(DDD) will return 0 to it.
>>>>>>>>>> No one ever bother to notice that (a) A decider cannot have 
>>>>>>>>>> its actual
>>>>>>>>>> self as its input.
>>>>>>>>> lolwut? A decider is a normal program, and it should be handled 
>>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>> every other input.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> (b) In the case of the pathological input DDD to emulating 
>>>>>>>>>> termination
>>>>>>>>>> analyzer HHH the behavior of the directly executed DDD (not an 
>>>>>>>>>> input
>>>>>>>>>> to HHH) is different than the behavior of DDD that is an input 
>>>>>>>>>> to HHH.
>>>>>>>>> DDD *is* the input to HHH.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The executed DDD calls HHH() and this call returns. The 
>>>>>>>>>> emulated DDD
>>>>>>>>>> calls HHH(DDD) and this call cannot possibly return.
>>>>>>>>> But whyyy doesn't HHH abort?
>>>>>>>> You can click on the link and cut-and-paste the question to see the
>>>>>>>> whole answer in compete detail.
>>>>>>> I am not interested in arguing with a chatbot. Make the points 
>>>>>>> yourself.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. **Nature of `DDD()`**:
>>>>>>>     - `DDD()` simply calls `HHH(DDD)`. It does not perform any 
>>>>>>> additional
>>>>>>> operations that could create a loop or prevent it from returning.
>>>>>>>     - If `HHH` returns (whether by aborting or completing its 
>>>>>>> simulation),
>>>>>>> `DDD()` can return to its caller.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. **Behavior of `HHH`**:
>>>>>>>     - If `HHH` is able to simulate `DDD()` and return, it should 
>>>>>>> report
>>>>>>> that `DDD()` terminates. If `HHH` aborts due to detecting non- 
>>>>>>> termination,
>>>>>>> it does not reflect the actual execution of `DDD()`; it leads to a
>>>>>>> conclusion that may not align with the true behavior.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3. **Contradiction in Results**:
>>>>>>>     - If `HHH` claims that `DDD()` does not halt, but in reality, 
>>>>>>> `DDD()`
>>>>>>> can terminate once `HHH` returns, then `HHH` is providing an 
>>>>>>> incorrect
>>>>>>> analysis.
>>>>>>>     - The contradiction lies in the ability of `HHH` to detect non-
>>>>>>> termination theoretically while simultaneously allowing `DDD()` 
>>>>>>> to halt in
>>>>>>> practical execution.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ### Conclusion:
>>>>>>> Given the nature of `DDD()` and how `HHH` operates, it becomes 
>>>>>>> clear that
>>>>>>> `HHH` cannot consistently provide a correct answer about whether 
>>>>>>> `DDD()`
>>>>>>> halts. The dynamics of calling and returning create a scenario 
>>>>>>> where the
>>>>>>> outcomes conflict. Thus, `HHH` is fundamentally flawed in its 
>>>>>>> role as a
>>>>>>> termination analyzer for functions like `DDD()`.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Did ChatGPT generate that?
>>>>>> If it did then I need *ALL the input that caused it to generate that*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://chatgpt.com/share/6709e046-4794-8011-98b7-27066fb49f3e
>>>>>> If you did not start with the basis of this link then you cheated.
>>>>>>
>>>>> No, someone using some REAL INTELEGENCE, as opposed to a program 
>>>>> using "artificial intelegence" that had been loaded with false 
>>>>> premises and other lies.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry, you are just showing that you have NO intelegence, and are 
>>>>> depending on a program that includes a disclaimed on every page 
>>>>> that its answers may have mistakes.
>>>>
>>>> I specifically asked it to verify that its key
>>>> assumption is correct and it did.
>>>
>>> No, it said that given what you told it (which was a lie) 
>>
>> I asked it if what it was told was a lie and it
>> explained how what it was told is correct.
> 
> Because Chat GPT doesn't care about lying.
> 

ChatGPT computes the truth and you can't actually
show otherwise.

>>
>> Instead of me having to repeat the same thing to
>> you fifty times why don't you do what I do to
>> focus my own concentration read what I say many
>> times over and over until you at least see what
>> I said.
> 
> Because what you are asking for is nonsense.
> 
> Of course an AI that has been programmed with lies might repeat the lies.
> 
> When it is told the actual definition, after being told your lies, and 
> asked if your conclusion could be right, it said No.
> 
> Thus, it seems by your logic, you have to admit defeat, as the AI, after 
> being told your lies, still was able to come up with the correct answer, 
> that DDD will halt, and that HHH is just incorrect to say it doesn't.
> 

I believe that the "output" Joes provided was fake on the
basis that she did not provide the input to derive that
output and did not use the required basis that was on the
link.

> If you want me to pay more attention to what you say, you first need to 
> return the favor, and at least TRY to find an error in what I say, and 
> be based on more than just that you think that can't be right.
> 

You are merely spouting off what you have been indoctrinated
to believe and cannot provide any actual basis in reasoning
why I am incorrect.

> But you can't do that, as you don't actually know any facts about the 
> field that you can point to qualified references.
> 

You cannot show that my premises are actually false. The
most that you can do is show that they are unconventional.

To show that they are false would at least require showing
that they contradict each other.

Failing to do that no one has any basis to even show that
they are false. The most that they can do is show that they
are unconventional.

-- 
Copyright 2024 Olcott "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius
hits a target no one else can see." Arthur Schopenhauer