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Path: ...!eternal-september.org!feeder2.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Lynn McGuire <lynnmcguire5@gmail.com> Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written Subject: Re: Whoops! The Atlantic Makes Trump Look EPIC In Cover Intended as a Smear Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2024 17:43:34 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 168 Message-ID: <vfh6un$3c1dh$2@dont-email.me> References: <20240913a@crcomp.net> <ceff4cd0-7f16-0f42-588b-374e89acf00c@example.net> <vcfq1i$8o8k$2@dont-email.me> <eef9e921-3ea3-76ee-39de-e34ac66733e4@example.net> <vcvu4d$3hnv8$1@dont-email.me> <vd1td8$3qtr8$1@dont-email.me> <vdmtmu$3s32s$1@dont-email.me> <vdn1t8$3sog6$1@dont-email.me> <30f4bfa3-9260-946a-1b74-2823bc0b5c49@example.net> <vfej9h$2qqt8$3@dont-email.me> <a2908bbf-a8b8-b5a6-eb7f-44d6fb228327@example.net> <vfgu6m$3am74$1@dont-email.me> <vfh2q6$3bgsr$1@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2024 00:43:36 +0200 (CEST) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="1622fbbdb93be732d15ca76d611c6f7c"; logging-data="3540401"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+9EXbR+YZm4Or9mke/iPkqbI28TAOisXA=" User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Cancel-Lock: sha1:lEvM3GtSmPAwxMlgFmeY5hkRf0s= Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <vfh2q6$3bgsr$1@dont-email.me> Bytes: 9081 On 10/25/2024 4:32 PM, William Hyde wrote: > Lynn McGuire wrote: >> On 10/25/2024 4:11 AM, D wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Lynn McGuire wrote: >>> >>>> On 10/4/2024 3:32 AM, D wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, 3 Oct 2024, William Hyde wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Lynn McGuire wrote: >>>>>>> On 9/25/2024 3:55 PM, William Hyde wrote: >>>>>>>> Mike Van Pelt wrote: >>>>>>>>> In article <eef9e921-3ea3-76ee-39de-e34ac66733e4@example.net>, >>>>>>>>> D <nospam@example.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Certainly in this group, anything that even remotely >>>>>>>>>> contradicts the narrative of man made global warming is never >>>>>>>>>> taken into account or ever discussed. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My position remains the same -- whether or not CO2 increases >>>>>>>>> cause global warming, to quote JEP, this is an uncontrolled >>>>>>>>> experiment on our biosphere that we probably shouldn't be doing >>>>>>>>> unless and until we know a lot more about what we're doing. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> But ... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We are in a Catch 22. Trying to run techological civilization >>>>>>>>> on exclusively "sunny days when the wind is blowing" energy >>>>>>>>> is impossible. To the extent the attempt is compelled by force, >>>>>>>>> the results will be collapse and millions of deaths wherever >>>>>>>>> it is successfully compelled. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm perfectly happy to phase out fossil fuel use as quickly >>>>>>>>> as possible. Where "quickly" is defined as "Two gigawatts >>>>>>>>> of nuclear comes on line for every gigawatt of fossil fuel >>>>>>>>> taken off line. Nuclear comes on line first, *then and only >>>>>>>>> then* does the fossil go offline." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> (Two-for-one for now, because we're behind on electric >>>>>>>>> generation capacity, and if we're going to have electric cars, >>>>>>>>> we'll need a lot more electricity to charge them.) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The adamant opposition to nuclear power by the people who >>>>>>>>> are most gung-ho on the "Global Warming" thing unalterably >>>>>>>>> convinces me that they do not belive it themselves. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Actually I am strongly pro-nuclear power, as are most climate >>>>>>>> scientists I know. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Circa 2000 a group from Princeton came up with a plan to limit >>>>>>>> the warming to 2.5C which did not involve nuclear, but also did >>>>>>>> not involve catastrophic economic decline. But even if we >>>>>>>> accept that this was possible then, it isn't now. Nuclear is a >>>>>>>> must, at least for a few decades. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am also pro-hydro, which most greens oppose, though it has to >>>>>>>> be carefully done (poorly placed reservoirs for dams can emit >>>>>>>> C02 and CH4 to such a degree that the power is only as clean as >>>>>>>> non- fracked natural gas. Better than coal, but not good enough). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Fossil fuels will continue to be burnt for a very long time. >>>>>>>> There is no conceivable way of shutting them down rapidly. We >>>>>>>> don't currently have a carbon capture system worth anything, but >>>>>>>> I can't believe it's beyond our abilities. Put Lynn on the job. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> William Hyde >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All Carbon Capture Systems (CCS) suck. >>>>>> >>>>>> Indeed they do. >>>>>> >>>>>> But rockets sucked in 1930, televisions sucked in 1940, wind power >>>>>> sucked in 1980, solar sucked in 1990, and so on. >>>>>> >>>>>> It's an unsolved problem and a hard one. But we really need it, >>>>>> and should take a run at it with a mass of smart people and decent >>>>>> funding. >>>>>> >>>>>> Which funding would be utterly trivial compared even to the >>>>>> expansion of one highway in Toronto. >>>>>> >>>>>> If we solve this one people burn fossil fuels to their hearts >>>>>> content, while preserving the real estate value of Florida, and >>>>>> even undo some of the damage we've already done. >>>>>> >>>>>> So, long shot or no, the payoff is huge. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> William Hyde >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I think the key for that to succeed, is to think about where CO2 is >>>>> used most. If those capture systems could then be used to feed >>>>> processes requireing CO2, a nice business might start. >>>>> >>>>> I think Holcim has some project looking into that for concrete >>>>> manufacturing, but I'm not sure. >>>> >>>> The problem is that the CO2 capture system require stainless steel >>>> absorbers as CO2 is an acid gas. That drives the cost of the CO2 >>>> adsorption plant to the same cost as the power generator. >>>> >>>> Lynn >>> >>> Ah, but I don't think cost or feasibility has ever stopped the eco- >>> fascist crowd! ;) >>> >>> But slowly it seems as if rationality and the laws of physics are >>> overtaking the politicians in the EU at least. Several car >>> manufacturers have communicated that they will continue to sell ICE >>> cars past 2030 or even 2035, since it would be financial suicide for >>> them to go all EV when the politicians told them to. >>> >>> Another bright spot is the swedish mining company LKAB who were >>> thinking about producing CO2-free steel by 2035, they scrapped the >>> idea too, since it turned out they would need all the current >>> electricity produced by sweden to make the process work, and doubling >>> the power generation and distribution capacity of the country by 2035 >>> would be impossible. >>> >>> Finally, it also seems as if Northvolt, the eco-bubble battery >>> manufacturer started in Sweden, is close to bankruptcy, due to china >>> outcompeting the. The investors are getting more and more reluctant >>> to throw good money after bad, so I hope it crashes soon. >>> >>> But this is what happens when politicians try to dictate to the >>> markets what works and what doesn't, so I hope the current generation >>> has learned their lesson, although probably not. ;) >>> >>> The sad part is that a lot of pension money has been invested in this >>> madness, so future pensions will suffer, but hey, the people voted >>> for it, so they can only blame themselves. ;) >> >> Huh, I wonder how you make carbon free steel since the definition of >> steel is carbon added to iron using anthracitic coal ? > > He didn't say "carbon free steel", he said "CO2-free steel". > > CO2-free steel production uses green hydrogen to replace carbon in the > first part of the process, though of course some carbon must be added > to the iron ore (assuming it is not already there) to make steel. > > I believe it's called the HYBRIT process. > > > William Hyde Thanks, I guess that the carbon is considered an "additive" in that process, just like tin, molybdenum, chrome, and a couple of other metals. Yeah, looks very energy intensive if you are not burning anthracitic coal to provide much of the energy. Probably easier to control the exhaust air than an open hearth process though. https://www.hybritdevelopment.se/en/a-fossil-free-future/a-value-chain-for-fossil-free-steel/ When I worked for TXU, we had a customer with three electric arc scrap metal furnaces in south Dallas. Each furnace had two 45 MW electric arcs. They would turn each electric arc on for up to 90 seconds at a time. They continuously slammed us trying to keep up with them and then dumping generation when they turned the arcs off. Luckily, we had the entire state of Texas to draw power from and dump to. Lynn