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From: The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy,comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: As the cosmos goes from infinitely hot/dense to infinitely
 cold/sparse . . .
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2024 10:32:10 +0000
Organization: A little, after lunch
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On 28/10/2024 10:22, D wrote:
> 
> 
> On Mon, 28 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> 
>> On 27/10/2024 21:34, D wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 27 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 27/10/2024 05:35, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>>>> On 10/26/24 10:21 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Oct 2024 02:06:21 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Our whole universe was in a hot dense state..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I look around, I see some in this noisegroup who still seem to 
>>>>>> be in
>>>>>> that state ...
>>>>>
>>>>>    Normally these groups are VERY quiet. But then it's only
>>>>>    about a week before elections.
>>>>>
>>>>>    As for the universe, it USED to be in a 'hot dense state',
>>>>>    but has cooled-off considerably. If 'dark energy' calx are
>>>>>    correct we're already on the downside - headed for icy doom.
>>>>>
>>>> Well so says the metaphysics of the classical scientific world view.
>>>>
>>>> We are surfing a wave of entropy created by the big bang and will 
>>>> all end up washed up the beach gasping and then die.
>>>>
>>>> Of course  the metaphysics of the classical scientific world view is 
>>>> only a man made theory, when it comes down to it. And can neither be 
>>>> proven true or false.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The world actually can be proven true. G.E. Moore did it many decades 
>>> ago. Here's a hand!
>>
>> Well no, in any given terms it cant be. At best you end up with 
>> 'something exists, even if its only me thinking something exists'
>>
>> Moore's logic is flawed. He has to presuppose an external world in 
>> which a hand can be held up before he can perform the action.
>>
>> Which is in the limit circular thinking, as if you stop thinking 
>> (proper transcendental meditation) you and the world both vanish, 
>> subjectively.
> 
> Actually, the brilliance is that he does not. The hand is proof of the 
> external world. The TM-guy does not cease to exist, and neither does the 
> world. You can easily utilize the same proof as Moore. It is brilliant 
> in its simplicity, and I think that is why some people don't get it. It 
> is simply too "easy".
> 
> Another extremely strong point in its favour is that it is actually the 
> people who propose that there is no external world who need to come up 
> with the arguments for it and so far, no one has been able to 
> successfully convince the world at large, that the external world does 
> not exist, by coming up with an alternative, that has iron clad proof.
> 
> Another indication of the strength of the position of a material world 
> existing is that about 70% of professional philosopher subscribe to 
> this. This is of course not a proof, but a strong indication as well.

I think you are still stuck in the same dichotomy that transcendental 
idealism simply removes from the board.

Is it all in the mind or is the mind the product of it all?
TI says 'both, and neither'

Reality as we understand it is 'something else'  interpreted by 'our minds'

There is no *proof* of any of this. These are metaphysical positions. 
Judged only by their *utility*. Models that are more or less useful

Their truth content is indecidable.

And anyone who claims otherwise has missed the boat

And at least 90% of professional philosophers don't really understand 
metaphysics.


-- 
Civilization exists by geological consent, subject to change without notice.
  – Will Durant