Path: ...!weretis.net!feeder9.news.weretis.net!news.quux.org!eternal-september.org!feeder2.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a
 new basis ---x86 code is a liar?
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2024 07:16:52 -0600
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 360
Message-ID: <vgfq86$24mon$1@dont-email.me>
References: <vfli1h$fj8s$1@dont-email.me> <vg8u0b$i9jj$5@dont-email.me>
 <2f2988b4d581398be9780ea082754d2a67bee1f6@i2pn2.org>
 <vg97j5$kb67$2@dont-email.me>
 <a89303e978559d2b152a014ad587e6f3defa323c@i2pn2.org>
 <vg98im$khai$1@dont-email.me>
 <b9a05a3897bb42f444e98f907bc9285a641415ab@i2pn2.org>
 <vg9efe$p463$1@dont-email.me>
 <fdcd7140ef71f12f42a99a9d5b720e1574b98920@i2pn2.org>
 <vg9h2j$pi2n$1@dont-email.me>
 <1ee05647789dbaab013f1194411ff373e45a463e@i2pn2.org>
 <vgafqv$umps$1@dont-email.me>
 <0cdb23355b23731751b9614543e8a1c257214b5a@i2pn2.org>
 <vgbskb$172co$1@dont-email.me>
 <157b13f5b452420f1bb20db458bfa7b952449ecf@i2pn2.org>
 <vgc2ju$1bqmm$1@dont-email.me>
 <585823321cf0a5e579b855438cfbf93229b233ee@i2pn2.org>
 <vgdjdq$1jr80$1@dont-email.me>
 <b24e957b9f2af15c0ba7f18a3f7bfe2c6ff6419d@i2pn2.org>
 <vgegce$1phg2$1@dont-email.me>
 <e36afcb3758e0fb26d58019c08a24c6df0b562a7@i2pn2.org>
 <vgenp1$1uh1b$2@dont-email.me>
 <acecb0ba68d86b00c95fae1ecf690ec514aee26b@i2pn2.org>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Injection-Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2024 14:16:55 +0100 (CET)
Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="735332d10af5f8ae87d49be8d9ed58b6";
	logging-data="2251543"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org";	posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+W2lVznRRLNWW+LuWttxxD"
User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird
Cancel-Lock: sha1:FPKab4jDfDIdEW/CjAK3ghfiTYI=
X-Antivirus: Norton (VPS 241105-14, 11/5/2024), Outbound message
Content-Language: en-US
In-Reply-To: <acecb0ba68d86b00c95fae1ecf690ec514aee26b@i2pn2.org>
X-Antivirus-Status: Clean
Bytes: 16150

On 11/6/2024 5:37 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 11/5/24 10:28 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 11/5/2024 7:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 11/5/24 8:22 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 11/5/2024 6:04 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 11/5/24 12:08 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/5/2024 6:03 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11/4/24 10:15 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 11/4/2024 8:42 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 11/4/24 8:32 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 11/4/2024 6:21 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/4/24 7:48 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/4/2024 6:07 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/24 11:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/2024 9:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/24 10:19 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/2024 7:46 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/24 8:38 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/2024 7:26 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/24 8:21 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What would an unbounded emulation do?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Keep on emulating for an unbounded number of steps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Something you don't seem to understand as part of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> requirements.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Non-Halting isn't just did reach a final state in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some finite number of steps, but that it will NEVER 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reach a final state even if you process an unbounded 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> number of steps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would an unbounded emulation of DDD by HHH halt?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not a valid question, as your HHH does not do an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unbounded emulation, but aborts after a defined time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Now you are contradicting yourself*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> YOU JUST SAID THAT HHH NEED NOT DO AN UNBOUNDED
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EMULATION TO PREDICT WHAT AN UNBOUNDED EMULATION WOULD DO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right. it doesn't NEED to do the operation, just report 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what an unbounded emulation would do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You asked about an "unbounded emulation of DDD by HHH" 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but that isn't possible, as HHH doesn't do that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/2024 12:20 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > On 11/3/24 9:39 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >> The finite string input to HHH specifies that HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >> MUST EMULATE ITSELF emulating DDD.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > Right, and it must CORRECTLY determine what an unbounded
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > emulation of that input would do, even if its own 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> programming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > only lets it emulate a part of that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You JUST said that HHH does not need to do an unbounded 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulation*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You JUST said that HHH does not need to do an unbounded 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulation*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You JUST said that HHH does not need to do an unbounded 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulation*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You JUST said that HHH does not need to do an unbounded 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulation*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right, it doesn't need to DO the unbounded emulatiohn just 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> figure out what it would do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just like we can compute:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + ... + 1/2^n + ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ether by adding the infinite number of terms, or we can 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> notice something about it to say it will sum, in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> infinite limit, to 2.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In the same way, if HHH can see something in its simulation 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that tells it THIS this program can NEVER halt, it can 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> report it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone with sufficient technical competence can see that
>>>>>>>>>>>> the unbounded emulation of DDD emulated by HHH can never halt.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, because the HHH that is given doesn't do that, and that 
>>>>>>>>>>> is the only one that matters.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/2024 12:20 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>  > On 11/3/24 9:39 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>>>  >> The finite string input to HHH specifies that HHH
>>>>>>>>>>  >> MUST EMULATE ITSELF emulating DDD.
>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>  > Right, and it must CORRECTLY determine what an unbounded
>>>>>>>>>>  > emulation of that input would do, even if its own programming
>>>>>>>>>>  > only lets it emulate a part of that.
>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you are going to keep contradicting yourself
>>>>>>>>>> I am going to stop looking at anything you say.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And where is the contradiction?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> HHH doesn't need to do the unlimited emulation, just say what 
>>>>>>>>> the unlimited emulation by the unlimited emulator (which WILL 
>>>>>>>>> be a different program) will do.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is what I have been saying all along.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, you agree that HHH1's emulation to the completion shows that 
>>>>>>> the complete emulation of the input to HHH does halt, and thus 
>>>>>>> the correct answer for HHH to give for *THIS* input, which has 
>>>>>>> implicitly included *THIS* HHH as part of it, is that it halts.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nothing like this.
>>>>>> You continue to fail to understand that halting
>>>>>> requires reaching the "return" instruction final
>>>>>> halt state. DDD emulated by HHH never does this.
>>>>>
>>>>> But the emulation by HHH isn't the correct measure of DDD reaching 
>>>>> its return statement.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well we did get somewhere on this so that is more progress.
>>>> Only reaching the final state is halting.
>>>
>>> And only something that continues to the end shows that, an emulation 
>>> that aborts doesn't show that the input is non-halting unless it can 
>>> prove that the unaborted emulation of that EXACT PROGRAM would never 
>>> halt.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> By the correct meaning of the statement, it is just false.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ChatGPT explains why and how it <is> the correct measure
>>>> in its own words and from a point of view that I not tell
>>>> it or even see for myself.
>>>>
>>>> https://chatgpt.com/share/67158ec6-3398-8011-98d1-41198baa29f2
>>>
>>> Base on your LIES, so doesn't mean anything,
>>>
========== REMAINDER OF ARTICLE TRUNCATED ==========