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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a
 new basis ---x86 code is a liar?
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2024 21:09:26 -0600
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On 11/6/2024 6:45 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 11/6/24 8:16 AM, olcott wrote:
>> On 11/6/2024 5:37 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 11/5/24 10:28 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 11/5/2024 7:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 11/5/24 8:22 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/5/2024 6:04 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11/5/24 12:08 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 11/5/2024 6:03 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 11/4/24 10:15 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 11/4/2024 8:42 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/4/24 8:32 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/4/2024 6:21 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/4/24 7:48 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/4/2024 6:07 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/24 11:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/2024 9:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/24 10:19 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/2024 7:46 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/24 8:38 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/2024 7:26 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/24 8:21 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What would an unbounded emulation do?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Keep on emulating for an unbounded number of steps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Something you don't seem to understand as part of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the requirements.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Non-Halting isn't just did reach a final state in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some finite number of steps, but that it will NEVER 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reach a final state even if you process an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unbounded number of steps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would an unbounded emulation of DDD by HHH halt?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not a valid question, as your HHH does not do an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unbounded emulation, but aborts after a defined time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Now you are contradicting yourself*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> YOU JUST SAID THAT HHH NEED NOT DO AN UNBOUNDED
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EMULATION TO PREDICT WHAT AN UNBOUNDED EMULATION WOULD 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right. it doesn't NEED to do the operation, just report 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what an unbounded emulation would do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You asked about an "unbounded emulation of DDD by HHH" 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but that isn't possible, as HHH doesn't do that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/2024 12:20 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > On 11/3/24 9:39 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >> The finite string input to HHH specifies that HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >> MUST EMULATE ITSELF emulating DDD.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > Right, and it must CORRECTLY determine what an unbounded
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > emulation of that input would do, even if its own 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> programming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > only lets it emulate a part of that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You JUST said that HHH does not need to do an unbounded 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulation*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You JUST said that HHH does not need to do an unbounded 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulation*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You JUST said that HHH does not need to do an unbounded 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulation*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You JUST said that HHH does not need to do an unbounded 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emulation*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right, it doesn't need to DO the unbounded emulatiohn 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just figure out what it would do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just like we can compute:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + ... + 1/2^n + ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ether by adding the infinite number of terms, or we can 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notice something about it to say it will sum, in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> infinite limit, to 2.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In the same way, if HHH can see something in its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation that tells it THIS this program can NEVER 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> halt, it can report it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone with sufficient technical competence can see that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the unbounded emulation of DDD emulated by HHH can never 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> halt.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, because the HHH that is given doesn't do that, and that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the only one that matters.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/2024 12:20 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>  > On 11/3/24 9:39 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  >> The finite string input to HHH specifies that HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>  >> MUST EMULATE ITSELF emulating DDD.
>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>>  > Right, and it must CORRECTLY determine what an unbounded
>>>>>>>>>>>>  > emulation of that input would do, even if its own 
>>>>>>>>>>>> programming
>>>>>>>>>>>>  > only lets it emulate a part of that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If you are going to keep contradicting yourself
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am going to stop looking at anything you say.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And where is the contradiction?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> HHH doesn't need to do the unlimited emulation, just say what 
>>>>>>>>>>> the unlimited emulation by the unlimited emulator (which WILL 
>>>>>>>>>>> be a different program) will do.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That is what I have been saying all along.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, you agree that HHH1's emulation to the completion shows 
>>>>>>>>> that the complete emulation of the input to HHH does halt, and 
>>>>>>>>> thus the correct answer for HHH to give for *THIS* input, which 
>>>>>>>>> has implicitly included *THIS* HHH as part of it, is that it 
>>>>>>>>> halts.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nothing like this.
>>>>>>>> You continue to fail to understand that halting
>>>>>>>> requires reaching the "return" instruction final
>>>>>>>> halt state. DDD emulated by HHH never does this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But the emulation by HHH isn't the correct measure of DDD 
>>>>>>> reaching its return statement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well we did get somewhere on this so that is more progress.
>>>>>> Only reaching the final state is halting.
>>>>>
>>>>> And only something that continues to the end shows that, an 
>>>>> emulation that aborts doesn't show that the input is non-halting 
>>>>> unless it can prove that the unaborted emulation of that EXACT 
>>>>> PROGRAM would never halt.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> By the correct meaning of the statement, it is just false.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ChatGPT explains why and how it <is> the correct measure
>>>>>> in its own words and from a point of view that I not tell
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