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From: olcott <polcott333@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: comp.theory
Subject: Re: The philosophy of computation reformulates existing ideas on a
 new basis ---x86 code is a liar?
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2024 22:02:00 -0600
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On 11/6/2024 9:42 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 11/6/24 10:09 PM, olcott wrote:
>> On 11/6/2024 6:45 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>> On 11/6/24 8:16 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>> On 11/6/2024 5:37 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>> On 11/5/24 10:28 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/5/2024 7:50 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>> On 11/5/24 8:22 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 11/5/2024 6:04 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 11/5/24 12:08 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 11/5/2024 6:03 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/4/24 10:15 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/4/2024 8:42 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/4/24 8:32 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/4/2024 6:21 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/4/24 7:48 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/4/2024 6:07 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/24 11:03 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/2024 9:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/24 10:19 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/2024 7:46 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/24 8:38 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/2024 7:26 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/24 8:21 PM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What would an unbounded emulation do?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Keep on emulating for an unbounded number of steps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Something you don't seem to understand as part of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the requirements.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Non-Halting isn't just did reach a final state in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some finite number of steps, but that it will 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NEVER reach a final state even if you process an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unbounded number of steps.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would an unbounded emulation of DDD by HHH halt?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not a valid question, as your HHH does not do an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unbounded emulation, but aborts after a defined time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Now you are contradicting yourself*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> YOU JUST SAID THAT HHH NEED NOT DO AN UNBOUNDED
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EMULATION TO PREDICT WHAT AN UNBOUNDED EMULATION 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> WOULD DO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right. it doesn't NEED to do the operation, just 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> report what an unbounded emulation would do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You asked about an "unbounded emulation of DDD by 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH" but that isn't possible, as HHH doesn't do that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/2024 12:20 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > On 11/3/24 9:39 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >> The finite string input to HHH specifies that HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >> MUST EMULATE ITSELF emulating DDD.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > Right, and it must CORRECTLY determine what an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unbounded
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > emulation of that input would do, even if its own 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> programming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > only lets it emulate a part of that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You JUST said that HHH does not need to do an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unbounded emulation*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You JUST said that HHH does not need to do an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unbounded emulation*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You JUST said that HHH does not need to do an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unbounded emulation*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *You JUST said that HHH does not need to do an 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unbounded emulation*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right, it doesn't need to DO the unbounded emulatiohn 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just figure out what it would do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just like we can compute:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + ... + 1/2^n + ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ether by adding the infinite number of terms, or we can 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notice something about it to say it will sum, in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> infinite limit, to 2.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In the same way, if HHH can see something in its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simulation that tells it THIS this program can NEVER 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> halt, it can report it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone with sufficient technical competence can see that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the unbounded emulation of DDD emulated by HHH can never 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> halt.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, because the HHH that is given doesn't do that, and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is the only one that matters.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 11/3/2024 12:20 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > On 11/3/24 9:39 AM, olcott wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >> The finite string input to HHH specifies that HHH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >> MUST EMULATE ITSELF emulating DDD.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > Right, and it must CORRECTLY determine what an unbounded
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > emulation of that input would do, even if its own 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> programming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  > only lets it emulate a part of that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you are going to keep contradicting yourself
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am going to stop looking at anything you say.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And where is the contradiction?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> HHH doesn't need to do the unlimited emulation, just say 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what the unlimited emulation by the unlimited emulator 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (which WILL be a different program) will do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That is what I have been saying all along.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So, you agree that HHH1's emulation to the completion shows 
>>>>>>>>>>> that the complete emulation of the input to HHH does halt, 
>>>>>>>>>>> and thus the correct answer for HHH to give for *THIS* input, 
>>>>>>>>>>> which has implicitly included *THIS* HHH as part of it, is 
>>>>>>>>>>> that it halts.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nothing like this.
>>>>>>>>>> You continue to fail to understand that halting
>>>>>>>>>> requires reaching the "return" instruction final
>>>>>>>>>> halt state. DDD emulated by HHH never does this.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But the emulation by HHH isn't the correct measure of DDD 
>>>>>>>>> reaching its return statement.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well we did get somewhere on this so that is more progress.
>>>>>>>> Only reaching the final state is halting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And only something that continues to the end shows that, an 
>>>>>>> emulation that aborts doesn't show that the input is non-halting 
>>>>>>> unless it can prove that the unaborted emulation of that EXACT 
>>>>>>> PROGRAM would never halt.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> By the correct meaning of the statement, it is just false.
>>>>>>>>>
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