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From: Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>
Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.tech
Subject: Re: 1972 Legnano in the news
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2024 23:58:59 -0500
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On 11/13/2024 11:44 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Nov 2024 15:01:19 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> 
>> On 11/13/2024 2:07 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>> On Wed, 13 Nov 2024 13:52:27 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/13/2024 11:11 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>>> On 11/13/2024 10:35 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Nov 2024 10:13:52 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/13/2024 4:27 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Nov 2024 03:35:27 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 12 Nov 2024 21:29:58 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 11/12/2024 4:44 PM, Radey Shouman wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I just did a web search for "walking helmet", and got pages of
>>>>>>>>>>> stuff on
>>>>>>>>>>> helmets for babies and toddlers learning to walk.  I guess that's a
>>>>>>>>>>> thing these days; I must be out of touch.  Perhaps one day we'll
>>>>>>>>>>> see a
>>>>>>>>>>> generation unwilling to step outside without a helmet.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That'll be a sad day indeed. But the general trend toward "Danger!
>>>>>>>>>> Danger!" warnings is strong. At one time, Safe Kids recommended
>>>>>>>>>> that no
>>>>>>>>>> kid under age 10 be allowed to cross a street alone.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And there's this:
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/crud/Bicycle-Safety.jpg
>>>>>>>>>> (Thanks, Jeff.)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I understand that some fear mongers actually want to ban bidirectional
>>>>>>>>> side paths.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Didn't Frank argue that ALL bike lanes were dangerious. Or rather more
>>>>>>>> dangerious then the road?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, I did not argue that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And John, much like Tom, you need to rely much less on your "memory" and
>>>>>>> much more on actual quotes of what I've said.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Quit emulating Tom.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Surprisingly, bike trails can be more dangerous than roads."
>>>>>> "[-] you're more likely go to the emergency room from riding a mile on
>>>>>> the bike trail than from riding a mile on the roads!"
>>>>>> --Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> https://bicyclinglife.com/SafetySkills/FrankNFred014.htm
>>>>>
>>>>> which is not "ALL bike lanes were dangerous. Or rather [ALL bike lanes
>>>>> are] more dangerous then the road?"
>>>>>
>>>>> spelling corrected and context clarified.
>>>>>
>>>>> floriduh dumbassess 4th grade reading comprehension on display again
>>>> I wonder if those two guys really think their obvious distortions of my
>>>> positions are convincing anybody.
>>>
>>>
>>> I quoted your exact words and provided documentation. How is that a
>>> distortion?
>>>
>>> Here it is again....
>>>
>>>
>>> "Surprisingly, bike trails can be more dangerous than roads."
>>> "[-] you're more likely go to the emergency room from riding a mile on
>>> the bike trail than from riding a mile on the roads!"
>>> --Frank Krygowski
>>>    https://bicyclinglife.com/SafetySkills/FrankNFred014.htm
>>
>> This guy is baffled by the distinction between "ALL are" and "can be."
>>
>> And for some data, see Transportation Research Record 1636 Paper No.
>> 98-0009, "Adult Bicyclists in the United States" by William E. Moritz
>>
>> His research paper referenced three different surveys of bike users, the
>> earliest of League of American Wheelmen members in 1974, one of about a
>> thousand Washington State adults in 1994, and one of League of American
>> Bicyclists members in 1996. Here are the resulting crash rates (per
>> million km) by facility. The numbers are in chronological order, so LAW
>> first, WA second, LAB third:
>>
>> Major road with no facilities: 71, 69, 41
>> Minor road with no facilities: 65, 82, 59
>> Multiuse trail:                181, 91, 88.
>>
>> All three surveys found multiuse trails to be much more dangerous than
>> ordinary streets and roads, per kilometer (or mile) traveled.
>>
>> And as I've mentioned here before, I'm seeing the same thing with
>> reports of crashes among out club riders, even though only a small
>> portion of our rides use such trails.
>>
>> BTW, the last such crash was less than two weeks ago. The guy in
>> question moved to the center of the trail to avoid a thick coating of
>> leaves. But in the center were some chunks of broken tree branches, over
>> an inch thick. He hit those and went down, breaking several ribs.
>>
> Lets see... a guy is riding on a bike path and comes upon an
> obstruction and assumes that he can ride over the obstruction but
> can't and so falls....and that's the path's fault?
I think it's more likely that he simply didn't see the chunks of wood. 
He certainly should have been paying attention. He apparently forgot 
that paths get many more leaves, branches and other debris.

I mentioned here that within the past year, one of my best riding 
friends crashed on a bike path. In his case, tree roots had lifted 
large, sharp ridges across the path surface. He said he was looking at 
something off to the side and didn't see the ridges. I do know of some 
of those ridges on two different bike trails that I occasionally use, 
and I know to watch for them and warn friends when we approach them.

I also remember two different club members who crashed on a different 
local bike trail due to slippery, slimy mud that had washed across the 
trail where it had a significant side-to-side slope. One of those guys 
suffered a dislocated shoulder in the crash.

Those things are all hazards that almost never occur on a normal road. 
Car tires tend to remove debris, and road maintenance people don't allow 
things like sharp ridges to remain in the pavement. Motorists would not 
put up with those.

-- 
- Frank Krygowski